- January 05, 2024
- Gambling
“Helping people feel good about their finances is an important part of feeling better overall.” – Alex DeMarco.
GamFin is an organization that connects gambling disorder counselors with expert financial counselors to help restore the financial health for individuals struggling with problem gambling. Alex DeMarco tells us how the process works and why it is beneficial for financial and emotional well-being.
Call Gateway Foundation: 855-723-0963
Gambling Problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER
Facebook: @RecoverGateway
Instagram: @recovergateway
Twitter/X: @RecoverGateway
LinkedIn: @Gateway-Foundation
Transcript:
Speaker 1 (Shane Cook)
Welcome to the first episode of Wager Danger in 2024. I’m your host, Shane Cook. Gambling Disorder Program director at Gateway Foundation. Before we rush headlong into the New Year, let’s pause for a huge thank you to our listeners and followers. We love hearing your comments and suggestions and you can reach us at Wager Danger at Gateway Foundation, dot org.
00;00;27;14 – 00;00;34;01
Speaker 1
Now, we wouldn’t be able to make the magic happen without our producer, Bob Ness. Hey, Bob. Happy New Year.
00;00;34;04 – 00;00;41;25
Speaker 2 (Bob Ness)
Happy New Year to you, Shane. And yeah, it’s been quite an eventful year. Lots going on, lots of good conversations.
00;00;41;26 – 00;01;01;10
Speaker 1
Yeah. I appreciate your effort putting together. Our year end review episode. I think that’s one of my favorite episodes of the year because the listeners can get a snippet from many of the shows that we had during 2023 and then go back and pick and choose which ones they want to dive into and learn a little bit more.
00;01;01;12 – 00;01;17;28
Speaker 2
Yeah, Yeah. And who’d have thunk it that we’d be talking about gambling rats and and, and gambling and military bases and things like that. It just seems like a lot of things you never think about. That’s what I love about the show, is all the. All the people that we get to meet and other things that we get to learn.
00;01;17;29 – 00;01;33;18
Speaker 2
You know, so once again, like if just because you know a lot about sports doesn’t make it good, does it make you a good gambler? So all the all these things. So but you’ve been doing a great job and it’s been a pleasure being a part of it. So, yeah, let’s keep on doing this. Make it 2024 even better.
00;01;33;22 – 00;01;36;01
Speaker 1
I like to say we couldn’t do it without you, you know?
00;01;36;01 – 00;01;39;07
Speaker 2
Thank you. Could do without you either. So.
00;01;39;09 – 00;01;45;03
Speaker 1
So I appreciate that. And let’s make it. Let’s make it even better. 2024.
00;01;45;06 – 00;01;48;03
Speaker 2
Yeah, I’m okay with that too. Let’s do it.
00;01;48;05 – 00;02;16;20
Speaker 1
Well, since it’s a new year and many people tend to focus on self-improvement to kick off their new year, we reached out to Alex DeMarco, the CEO and founder of Money Stack, and Gamfin. Gamfin provides financial health advice and solutions for gambling disorder treatment providers, financial distress is a common concern for many recovering from a gambling addiction, and people often underestimate how feelings and finances are intertwined.
00;02;16;22 – 00;02;32;05
Speaker 1
Gamfin and Alex’s team provide a unique and much needed resource for problem gambling counselors to better serve their clients. We’re really excited. Learn more about money Stack and Gamfin. Welcome to the show, Alex.
00;02;32;07 – 00;02;36;03
Speaker 3 (Alex DeMarco)
All right. Thank you, Shane. Thank you for the invitation. Happy to be here.
00;02;36;05 – 00;03;01;16
Speaker 1
Yeah, we’re excited. Have you? I know we had an opportunity to hear a little bit about Gamfin at a recent meeting with all of the providers throughout the state of Illinois that focus on problem gambling. And it was organized not only by the state, but also in coordination with the Illinois Council on Problem Gambling. And you had an opportunity to walk us through the program that you had started.
00;03;01;16 – 00;03;20;20
Speaker 1
And I thought this would be a perfect topic for us to cover. And if you wouldn’t mind, could you give us kind of the history of not only money stack, but then money stack and how it emerged in focusing on financial health related to problem gambling?
00;03;20;22 – 00;03;46;24
Speaker 3
Sure, sure. Yeah, I’d love to. Thank you. Yeah. So I guess I can start with what Gamfin is and then I can tell you how we got here. Because it’s unique. There’s nothing else really like it out there. So Gamfin is an online community for problem gambling treatment providers only for professionals, providers and other professionals working in the field of problem gambling treatment and responsible gambling as well.
00;03;46;26 – 00;04;21;19
Speaker 3
And basically, we focus on financial topics that come up in treatment and basically supporting treatment providers. When financial questions come up, when you know, gambling debts, when budgeting, tracking finances, basically rebuilding of relationships, when individuals are recovering from their gambling disorder and trying to use finances to show that they’re making progress towards paying off their debt and rebuilding trust with significant others in their in their families.
00;04;21;21 – 00;04;33;16
Speaker 3
The way I think about our role is to connect treatment providers to our team of financial counselors so that they can work together. So we’re connectors and that’s what our platform enables.
00;04;33;18 – 00;04;50;15
Speaker 1
So Gamfin is essentially a broker for for two different types of counselor, right? It’s a counselor providing behavioral health service and a counselor who’s providing financial health service. Right.
00;04;50;17 – 00;05;15;18
Speaker 3
The way we deliver our services is this online community platform where treatment providers can join. They can become members for free. We have over almost 300 members now across the country, and they can ask questions. And the community is supported by financial educators and financial counselors who answer questions, do research if they need to, in order to answer those questions.
00;05;15;21 – 00;05;47;00
Speaker 3
But also other members of the community can add comments, ask further follow up questions and so on to have a discussion around that financial topic. So basically everybody is able to learn from the conversation. Beyond that, if there’s a more specific, you know, issue to discuss for an individual client, then we have financial counseling services. These are one on one consultations where a treatment provider can meet with a financial counselor to discuss a client case.
00;05;47;02 – 00;06;16;07
Speaker 3
They can also invite their client into that conversation. This all happens on Zoom, and they can talk about their situation and where they want to go. And finally, we have financial training, so we offer webinars on various topics from taxes to crypto to bankruptcy. Why bankruptcy is a last resort. What’s involved in that basic budgeting? We have financial counseling in general and how that can be incorporated into problem gambling, treatment and recovery.
00;06;16;09 – 00;06;28;07
Speaker 3
So the community itself, the financial counseling services and the training for treatment providers really we’re there as a resource for treatment providers to support you in the work that you do.
00;06;28;14 – 00;06;55;17
Speaker 1
Okay, Great overview. I have a couple of questions, though. In terms of how you got to gambling as a particular niche. It doesn’t seem like that would be an immediate connection to make, although I don’t. In a lot of ways it makes sense that if you’re gambling a lot and you’re you’ve got a gambling disorder historically, you’re going to find yourself chasing some debt.
00;06;55;24 – 00;07;18;23
Speaker 1
You’ve opened credit cards to participate in online gambling there. Maybe they’re maxed out. You’ve started to recognize this is a problem and I need to get a get control of that. So that part I understand. But in terms of straight financial services and debt management, how did you make the connection between that and gambling?
00;07;18;26 – 00;07;49;04
Speaker 3
Right. So so about two years ago, we were doing something else in financial education. We were working with HUD housing counseling agencies. We had built communities for a couple of agencies that we were working with, where we were providing financial education in a community based format for low and moderate income families looking to become homebuyers, Learn about the homebuying process and work with their financial counselor, their housing counselor to qualify for special homebuying programs while we were doing that.
00;07;49;09 – 00;08;16;24
Speaker 3
The problem gambling program director for the State of North Carolina found us, and she was curious about our community based format for providing financial education. We got to talking and basically we were looking at the questions and the issues that came up for problem gambling treatment providers in North Carolina who were working with their clients. And they just they wanted training.
00;08;16;24 – 00;08;40;19
Speaker 3
They wanted to know more about how to address questions around debt, questions, around budgeting questions, other financial questions that came up. And we thought about providing that training in a community based format. So basically taking what we were doing with the HUD agencies and applying it to build a community for problem gambling treatment providers in North Carolina. So we built this online community.
00;08;40;21 – 00;09;13;27
Speaker 3
We launched it as a pilot project. Amanda Winters is the program director in North Carolina. So shout out to Amanda. Amazing. You know, sort of open mindedness and willingness to experiment and try this out with us. So, so grateful for that. The pilot project went really, really well. So people responded really well. They wanted more training. They wanted to engage with our financial counselors beyond just, you know, the community Q&A, but also, you know, the one on one financial counseling that I was talking about before.
00;09;13;29 – 00;09;37;07
Speaker 3
And then beyond North Carolina. So we started to talk to program directors in other states and we basically took off. You know, we’re we’re in 15 states now. Things have been going really well in particular in the last few months. And we took that model and we’ve expanded it to be a nationwide service. So how does financial counseling support gambling treatment?
00;09;37;10 – 00;09;59;18
Speaker 3
Going back to your question. Well, what we heard from the very beginning was that the top two reasons people call for help, they call that one 800 gambler helpline for help. Number one is gambling debt. You know, someone may have just lost a lot of money gambling. They may have reached the point where the the debt just seems overwhelming and they don’t know what to do.
00;09;59;21 – 00;10;23;15
Speaker 3
So they call for help. The second reason is they may realize, my, we’ve got a lot of debt here, don’t know what to do. And I need to tell my significant other or a family member, a parent, about our situation and how do we even have this conversation? How do we talk about where they are financially? So top two reasons were very closely related to finances.
00;10;23;17 – 00;10;58;25
Speaker 3
And we wanted to equip treatment providers with tools to address finances, to open the dialog, to help people, you know, bring the whole situation on to one page, understand what options they may have, and then come up with a plan based on their values, their priorities, what you know, who’s involved in their family. Everybody’s situation is unique, but basically come up with a plan that’s individualized to help an individual and their, you know, family members recover from where they are.
00;10;58;25 – 00;11;06;21
Speaker 3
So basically equip them with the tools they needed to support their treatment and recovery from their disorder.
00;11;06;23 – 00;11;39;10
Speaker 1
Okay. So the primary target then, being the counselors from behavioral health service providers that are working with their clients. But then you do provide that one on one experience for those clients who are interested, or the counselors who recognize a case where this might require a little bit more hand-holding and a more deliberate approach, they can reach out and work with one of your counselors on a very specific program.
00;11;39;12 – 00;12;02;08
Speaker 3
That’s right. That’s right. What we’ve seen is, you know, we started with training. We wanted to show treatment providers how certain financial tools could be used to get everybody on the same page, to come up with a plan and to track progress towards goals. But what we learned is that they wanted more. They wanted that one on one consultation.
00;12;02;10 – 00;12;33;26
Speaker 3
So what we see now and our business has evolved and we now offer this as a service. Our financial counselors join in to a Zoom conversation between their treatment provider and their client to talk about finances. And sometimes it takes, you know, three or four or five sessions together to come up with that plan and to carry out certain action items from one session to the next follow up on them and offer coaching and advice as new issues come up when carrying out the plan.
00;12;33;29 – 00;12;48;22
Speaker 3
So yeah, it’s it’s become more than training. It’s now a support service where professional to professional, you know treatment provider and financial counselor are able to work together to support the individual.
00;12;48;25 – 00;13;21;26
Speaker 1
Yeah, it’s an area where I think just in general there’s a lot of education to be had around the financial domain and personal finance domain. Regardless of whether gambling is involved or not. It seems to be an area where it just and I know I’m making a broad a broad generalization here that many people don’t understand how the debt service actually affects their overall personal finances.
00;13;21;26 – 00;13;53;18
Speaker 1
And look at that holistically and not understanding how to implement a plan to get out of debt. So when you add gambling on top of that, and perhaps I’m going to go as far as to say add on top the current economy that we’re in at this particular point, there’s a lot to consider there. And I think a lot of people, frankly, don’t know where to turn for real good, solid advice.
00;13;53;20 – 00;14;24;27
Speaker 3
Right. So so a couple of things to touch on in response there. So what we’ve heard from treatment providers is that if we’re just addressing the financial issue. So, for example, if someone declares bankruptcy or if they get a bailout, you know, a family member pays off their gambling debt if they’re only addressing the financial issue in isolation eventually, if they haven’t addressed the underlying gambling issues, they often return back to where they started.
00;14;24;27 – 00;14;52;12
Speaker 3
They’re back in the same place where they started financially. So we really want to think about how to provide financial counseling in support of the problem gambling treatment, basically provide a holistic service to the individual so that they can treat both sides, you know, where they are helping them improve, where they are financially, and come up with a plan for long term recovery from their disorder.
00;14;52;15 – 00;15;18;18
Speaker 3
So, yeah, we don’t want to work alone and just deal with the finances. The second thing is like when we do what we do, we’re focused on providing the right financial counseling for the individual. We’re not promoting any products. We don’t get paid a commission where they’re acting in the best interest of the individual, and we get paid for that service, a fee for service.
00;15;18;18 – 00;15;44;17
Speaker 3
Basically. We’re not like a traditional financial advisor who might get paid based on a fee, based on their assets under management. So we’re really there to solve problems for the individual to help them come up with a plan that’s going to help them get better and ultimately restore hope. That’s really the key element, is giving people a sense that it might take a long time.
00;15;44;17 – 00;16;08;05
Speaker 3
It may, you know, be several years to get out of the situation that they’re in. Maybe some hard decisions to be made along the way. But there usually is a plan to get to a better place financially that restores hope. And with that, then you can, you know, keep working with your treatment provider to work on on the the gambling side of of the cure.
00;16;08;07 – 00;16;44;28
Speaker 1
So if I can kind of boil that down, you’re providing the education, the tools, the knowledge, the know how. Based on previous examples, best practices, things like that, not necessarily offering any financial service tools or anything to the individual outside of the education and know how to allow that individual to to navigate this process. Right. And you and you look at an on a on a person by person or an individual basis and provide that education accordingly.
00;16;45;00 – 00;17;16;10
Speaker 3
Yeah. And I would say, like our financial counselors over the years, you know, that they’ve been members of the online community, they’ve learned from the community, from treatment providers, sharing stories and sharing ideas they’ve learned by attending conferences. And in speaking with professionals in the field about some of the nuances and differences to consider when providing financial counseling in this field of problem gambling treatment.
00;17;16;13 – 00;17;48;02
Speaker 3
So, for example, the idea of building up an emergency fund, it’s kind of a best practice in financial counseling in general. That’s something that they promote and want people to do. But in problem gambling treatment, it’s a little different. In addition to building up an emergency fund, you also have to think about implementing controls around access to those funds so that it doesn’t become an easy or a trigger for an individual to want to go and spend that money gambling at some point.
00;17;48;05 – 00;17;58;24
Speaker 1
Yeah, perfect. So in terms of how you are getting the word out about GAM, and you mentioned you’ve partnered now with 17, 17 states.
00;17;58;27 – 00;17;59;28
Speaker 3
Right? Yeah.
00;18;00;02 – 00;18;19;02
Speaker 1
15. Okay. 15. Soon to be 17, I’m sure. But you partnered with with 15 states. How else are you getting the word out besides just going knocking on doors? How many referrals are you starting to see? More referrals come in. How does that work?
00;18;19;05 – 00;18;41;28
Speaker 3
Right. So the national accounts the national conference was great for us this year. In July in D.C., we had an exhibitor booth there. We got to meet program leaders across the country. So we’re hoping to be in San Diego again this year. So that’s going to be a big event for us. Honestly, word of mouth, it’s a small world.
00;18;42;03 – 00;19;08;14
Speaker 3
You know, I was listening to the year in review episode that you published and the speaker said you’ve had it on the show. Like, these are really influential speakers in the field, and I have met roughly half of them at various conferences across the country, and I’ve heard them speak. So it’s a small world. Everybody knows everybody is a word of mouth is traveling fast, and this is great.
00;19;08;17 – 00;19;28;27
Speaker 3
Right. So, you know, the idea of me knocking on doors, there aren’t that many doors to knock on for. But, yeah, I mean, we’re trying to improve our online presence. There’s going to be more social media. There’s going to be more going out in 2024 about us and about what we’re doing. So count on that as well.
00;19;28;29 – 00;19;51;22
Speaker 1
And I would assume to the same holds true. The more counselors that are involved in your online community, the more that word will spread as well, because as you say, it is, you know, in a sense of fairly small community. But by the same token, I will say I’ve been at this for a few years now, and I’ve noticed it’s continuing to grow each and every year.
00;19;51;22 – 00;20;24;15
Speaker 1
So even the conferences in CPG conference that you reference, I think I noticed more people there this year than I did last year. Yeah, and same same with I CPG as well. So it, it, it’s, it’s an area that I think there’s, there’s a it’s got high visibility for one thing. And the other thing is more and more providers are getting involved in providing these types of service simply out of need.
00;20;24;18 – 00;20;51;03
Speaker 3
Yeah. And you know, I think the community helps a lot. You know, the idea that treatment providers can join the community, learn about what we do, ask questions, learn from other members of the community, like just sharing ideas and sharing, you know, you know, this particular solution worked well for a problem that we had with one individual case, for example.
00;20;51;03 – 00;21;06;03
Speaker 3
These kinds of stories generate interest, interest. One colleague invites another. So some of the the word of mouth, I mean, people are able to join on their own without me having to go out there. I knock on their door. Yeah.
00;21;06;06 – 00;21;12;04
Speaker 1
Well, let’s talk about your finding. How many financial counselors do you currently have working, for example, then?
00;21;12;11 – 00;21;22;03
Speaker 3
Yeah. So we’re a group of four and we’re hiring because demand is increasing. So you’ll see a job description go out on the website soon in the new Year.
00;21;22;05 – 00;21;54;27
Speaker 1
So you’ve got four counselors working with you now. But I’m assuming that as these counselors continue to to interact with those in the middle or in the behavioral health space, that may open up some opportunities as well. If you’ve got some people and the behavioral health space that have a financial background, see a real need here that might open some opportunities not only for them, but for you as well to look to make a partnership there.
00;21;55;00 – 00;22;17;18
Speaker 3
Yeah. So a couple of things that we’re seeing. So, number one, we’re seeing more demand for our financial counseling services. So we’re hiring on that front. What we’re seeing is that treatment providers who want to learn more about finances and may have experienced expertise in providing some financial counseling, are interested in supporting the community and providing financial counseling.
00;22;17;20 – 00;22;35;11
Speaker 3
And we’re looking at developing a training program that will allow this and, you know, ways that we can help treatment providers basically become financial counselors in our network. And what we’re looking at right now, what that can look like, are sorry, we’re looking at how that that training program can evolve.
00;22;35;14 – 00;23;02;24
Speaker 1
But also kind of become a GAM fan certified counselor. Right. Right. Or something along those lines makes it makes a ton of sense. And the only reason I bring this up and I don’t mean to put you on the spot here, but I’ve just it’s one of those things that internally here at Gateway, we talk about quite frequently among those that are providing gambling services for us or on on our behalf.
00;23;02;26 – 00;23;43;20
Speaker 1
Is this real need to have better financial information or education or what? Competency is really the word I’m looking for. So I think through the community that you’ve established, based on what I’ve seen and through discussions I’ve had, it looks like this is a foundation, right? It provides kind of a base level knowledge. You can you can utilize it and interact with the behavioral health counselors around problem gambling, how that affects the finances, strategies, programs, things that you can implement with your clients.
00;23;43;23 – 00;24;18;15
Speaker 1
But on the other side of that is you’ve got to have some real, you know, crackerjack knowledge about how to utilize the tools to get out of financial debt. So those are two things. But putting them together here, I think is a beautiful scenario helps us. And I would assume that some of the people that that you’ve hired to fulfill that role, a financial counselor, have a real soft spot for working with this particular group in the mental health space.
00;24;18;18 – 00;24;54;01
Speaker 3
Yeah, I think, you know, the financial counseling, the main financial counseling service that we provide, what we found is that we’re able to bring in individuals who have a lot of experience in providing financial counseling in general. They may have years of experience. The the training and certifications and from the financial world. And then we’re able to train them and provide them some background on problem gambling and the domain so that they’re better equipped to start learning from the community and engaging with treatment providers.
00;24;54;03 – 00;25;21;01
Speaker 3
So this is how we bring people from the financial world in to this space. Now, what I was referring to before, where you have treatment providers who have an interest in learning about finances and want to grow their professional skill sets and advance their skill in finances. So one of the areas we’re looking at is moving into the financial world and creating more awareness there about problem gambling.
00;25;21;02 – 00;25;50;12
Speaker 3
So the best people to speak about from gambling are treatment providers in this field or people with lived experience in this field who can, you know, relate to the financial world and explain what they’re seeing. You know, their stories and you know, what worked and what didn’t for them. And, you know, you may have people in the financial world who are observing financial behaviors, observing generational wealth transfers from, you know, boomer generation to the next generation.
00;25;50;12 – 00;26;16;20
Speaker 3
And these professionals may sense that there’s something not right here, but right where do I direct people? Like maybe there’s some spending habits that are related to gambling, but how do I even have that conversation with my client? Well, we want to introduce these treatment providers to that community so that they can then say to them, these are the resources available to you as a financial professional.
00;26;16;21 – 00;26;28;19
Speaker 3
Here’s a pamphlet. Here’s something you can tell them to get them access to the help that they need. So that crossover, that direction, that’s something we’re exploring in 2024 as well.
00;26;28;21 – 00;26;57;22
Speaker 1
Okay. Yeah, perfect. So I’m curious here in terms of everybody likes a good success story, right? So you’ve been working in this space now for a couple of years. Is there a success story that you can point to and say, man, that we made a huge difference there or something that caught you completely off guard maybe, and you were like, I didn’t even consider that.
00;26;57;22 – 00;27;00;18
Speaker 1
But this turned out to be a great success. Yeah.
00;27;00;20 – 00;27;01;05
Speaker 3
Yeah.
00;27;01;08 – 00;27;03;14
Speaker 1
Any, any stories you can provide there?
00;27;03;16 – 00;27;29;20
Speaker 3
Yeah. So, you know, we get emails all the time from treatment providers who tell us how their client has changed, like their outlook has changed after a financial counseling session, after, you know, having a conversation with a financial counselor, getting everything on one page, having some clarity of where to go next, and having an idea of, yeah, you know, there is a path forward, I can get to a better place.
00;27;29;23 – 00;27;50;27
Speaker 3
Their outlook changes and, you know, this shows in their next session with with the treatment provider and then they come back so that repeat visits are really great to see. But specifically, there’s one individual that I can tell you about. This is a story we heard from a treatment provider. This client of hers was really, really depressed about her financial situation.
00;27;51;04 – 00;28;18;28
Speaker 3
She had accumulated a lot of debt because of her gambling and she had a really hard time getting out of bed before four in the afternoon where she was at that moment, she was in a really bad place. She met with our financial counselor and in that first session, they really tried to identify something that would be sort of a quick win and easy win, something that could help her regain some hope and some motivation.
00;28;19;01 – 00;28;40;12
Speaker 3
They didn’t really want to go down the road of talking about budgeting and, you know, all the debt that she had accumulated too much, that was too much of a heavy conversation to have. Just wanted to focus on a quick win. So through some back and forth, they came to the realization that she had a storage locker, that she had sort of it wasn’t top of mind anymore.
00;28;40;18 – 00;29;02;01
Speaker 3
She had, you know, stuff in there that wasn’t really all that important to her, basically by getting rid of that storage locker. This would free up about $150 a month in cash flow and that, you know, clearing out that storage locker, selling the stuff that was in there would generate a little bit of money that she could use to pay off some debt.
00;29;02;03 – 00;29;34;29
Speaker 3
So that storage locker clearing it out became a project for this client that was so motivating that she was able to get out of bed before 11, go work on that. And basically this gave her the something that she needed to really have a different outlook on where she was heading. And this this is, you know, the treatment provider reflecting on this and telling us about how their her her client that individual just changed our outlook after that initial consultation.
00;29;34;29 – 00;29;47;05
Speaker 3
And she kept going back for several sessions to talk about, you know, the next steps. But but just that one change really, or that one meeting led to a pretty big change for that individual.
00;29;47;07 – 00;30;15;17
Speaker 1
Right? Well, it often takes a catalyst like that. Right. And sometimes it’s something so simple that that many of us might think up on our own. But having the opportunity to talk to a counselor, kind of brainstorm some ideas and come up with it, provides that spark of motivation to get that person headed in the right direction and then from there, just continues to build and build over time.
00;30;15;19 – 00;30;24;21
Speaker 1
Right. I got to believe that that’s the theory here. Right. And sad that catch fire in one place and then it continues to spread.
00;30;24;23 – 00;31;01;20
Speaker 3
Right. Yeah. You know, it’s asking the right questions. It’s kind of well, why do you need those things in a storage locker? You know, like the. Tell me more about what’s in there that’s really important to you. And, you know, is there somewhat I don’t know how the conversation went specifically, but the point is like kind of exploring options, asking questions, doing so in a, you know, nonjudgmental way, you know, talking about finances in a way that maybe no one’s ever maybe this individual had never talked about her finances in that in that open way before.
00;31;01;23 – 00;31;12;10
Speaker 3
Like this opens up opportunities and options that maybe haven’t been explored previously that can lead to, you know, outcomes that make a difference.
00;31;12;12 – 00;31;45;06
Speaker 1
Right. Right. All right. So in terms of just I kind of want to start to wrap this up, and I really appreciated the conversation here. I think it’s such an important topic as one that doesn’t get enough attention and in my opinion, and that’s all it’s worth. But it’s so important to the recovery aspect for problem gambling is getting the financial health in order and or at least a plan in place to restore financial health.
00;31;45;06 – 00;32;08;10
Speaker 1
I think that’s so important here. And it sounds like that’s what that’s what you’ve come to understand here over the over the last few years and engaging in this particular area. But as we as we close up, it’s there anything that you think is very important to understand that we haven’t covered throughout this conversation?
00;32;08;13 – 00;32;40;13
Speaker 3
So much of what we do has very little to do with the numbers and the number crunching when it comes to financial counseling, understanding people, their stories, their relationship to money, what they believe about their situation, like the money and the numbers on a spreadsheet is is is the is the outcome. But understanding what led to where they are, you know, how they are thinking about their situation.
00;32;40;13 – 00;33;17;24
Speaker 3
Now, our financial counselors help people understand themselves and their own stories. And then by thinking about their unique situation, their values, their priorities, their goals, then thinking about the plan to change their trajectory, that’s that’s really what they do. They’re not about spreadsheet, you know, magic. And, you know, that’s actually pretty simple for the most part. I mean, the number crunching in a spreadsheet, the harder part is those conversations like how to have a conversation and, you know, encourage and support people as they open up.
00;33;17;26 – 00;33;43;14
Speaker 3
And I think this idea of combining that work with the treatment providers and what treatment providers have been trained to do to help people recover from their gambling disorder, I mean, this is a powerful combination of professional skills that can really do a lot of good to help people get better, I think. Yeah, And this field in particular.
00;33;43;17 – 00;34;05;10
Speaker 1
Well, I love that answer. And here’s why. I’ve always you know, one of the things I think about when I when it comes to money and finances, there’s a lot of emotional baggage that gets attached to that particular area. And the financial side of it is is merely I people will call it as the way you keep score.
00;34;05;12 – 00;34;36;24
Speaker 1
Right. It’s but it’s nothing more than a tool, right? I mean, money is a tool within our society. And there’s even though people have a deep attachment to it emotionally, when you step back and look at it, I guess objectively and you have that opportunity to have conversations that focus on the emotional side and try to unbundle that from the financial side, That’s when you start to see progress, right?
00;34;36;26 – 00;34;41;02
Speaker 1
Yeah, that’s kind of what is that kind of what you’re getting at here?
00;34;41;08 – 00;35;05;29
Speaker 3
Yeah. I mean, our feelings and our finances are connected, whether we like it or not. We’re not making financial decisions always, you know, in the most rational way, you know, And I think this is this is recognized in the industry overall, like beyond gaming treatment, the psychology of financial planning is a new component of becoming a certified financial professional.
00;35;05;29 – 00;35;32;23
Speaker 3
The CFP CFP program just recently added this to their curriculum. There’s, you know, association called the Financial therapist Association, kind of bringing these two worlds together. I mean, the idea of feelings and finances being connected is, I think, becoming more recognized now than ever before. And I think there’s an opportunity here, you know, thinking to the future and what we want to do with money.
00;35;32;23 – 00;35;56;03
Speaker 3
Stack So money Stack is the company and we’re building, you know, a platform to bring financial counseling to mental health overall into other areas as you know, beyond problem gambling treatment, because treatment providers are asking us to support them. And there are other clients that that they may be working with. And in fact, there’s data that supports that.
00;35;56;03 – 00;36;20;06
Speaker 3
There’s a pretty big opportunity there. And, you know, people need financial counseling, 52%, according to a recent Bankrate survey, 52% of individuals in treatment for anxiety, depression, stress and other mental health conditions say that their condition is made worse by financial financial issues in their lives. That’s that’s huge. That’s a huge number of of and over 40 million people.
00;36;20;06 – 00;36;24;17
Speaker 1
And yet that may be understated right and.
00;36;24;20 – 00;36;29;12
Speaker 3
Under yeah I mean this is just what’s what people are that’s what’s.
00;36;29;15 – 00;36;29;24
Speaker 1
In the.
00;36;29;24 – 00;36;30;09
Speaker 3
Survey I.
00;36;30;09 – 00;36;32;08
Speaker 1
Guess ready to admit that’s correct.
00;36;32;12 – 00;37;00;23
Speaker 3
Yeah yeah. So I mean there’s an opportunity here to support treatment providers for other areas of mental health treatment. We really believe in this professional to professional partnership model and I think there’s a lot of good that we can do by kind of bringing these two worlds of counseling together to help people feel better, you know, and helping people feel better about their finances is an important part of helping people feel better overall.
00;37;00;25 – 00;37;17;14
Speaker 1
Right? Definitely Well, I certainly appreciate the work that you’re doing there. Money Can GAM fan. We’ll look forward to hearing more about it. If somebody a counselor who’s listening to this to the program, how do they get connected to your community?
00;37;17;21 – 00;37;52;19
Speaker 3
Right. So they can go to GAM FinAid.org. So gambling and finances GAM fan, GAM finance, dawg. And it’s a community for treatment providers. So we asked people to request access to the community. There’s no cost to become a member. And yeah, if you would like to learn more about our financial counseling services, you can email support at Janssen dot org or you can just go to that website that I referenced earlier against Dawg and post a question there as so perfect.
00;37;52;24 – 00;38;15;21
Speaker 1
Yeah, well it’s an easy signup. I went through it myself and I appreciate it. I got it. So thank you. All right. Well, thank you for listening. Remember Yeah, the person who runs the site and services moderator. I appreciate that. We’ll also include that information in the show notes. So People can reference that afterwards and always find it.
00;38;15;23 – 00;38;36;06
Speaker 1
But Alex, I really appreciate the conversation today. I think it’s such important work. It’s good to know that there are resources out there for our counselors to reach out and tackle this issue with their clients that are suffering from gambling harm. So thank you again.
00;38;36;08 – 00;38;39;07
Speaker 3
All right. Thank you, Shane. Thank you for the opportunity.
00;38;39;10 – 00;39;13;19
Speaker 1
We love hearing from you. So please take a moment to like, share and comment on our podcast. You can reach out to us directly via email at Ouija Danger at Gateway Foundation and dot org. Look for us on Facebook and Twitter at Recovery Gateway on LinkedIn, at Gateway Dash Foundation, or through our website at Gateway Foundation. Dawg Wager Danger is supported through funding in whole or in part through a grant from the Illinois Department of Human Services and the Division of Substance Abuse Prevention and Recovery.
00;39;13;21 – 00;39;29;19
Speaker 1
And remember, recovery is a lifelong process. If you are a family member struggling with a gambling problem, call Gateway at 844-975-3663 and speak with one of our counselors for a confidential assessment assessment.
Illinois Council on Problem Gambling Looks to the Future | A Conversation With Dave Wohl
