- October 04, 2024
- Gambling
Most of us, at some point in our lives, will struggle. The fortunate will find redemption, fewer will experience transformation. Dan Trolaro’s story embodies what it means to transform and to grow. Listen how Dan’s lived experience fuels his passion to educate NCAA collegiate athletes and youth in general. He’s on a mission to expose the potential dangers and pitfalls associated with gambling and the all-too-accessible world of sports betting.
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LinkedIn: @Gateway-Foundation
Transcript:
00;00;00;00 – 00;00;12;07
Unknown
A young man from one of the colleges a couple of weeks ago came out and said he gets Venmo requests regularly. You sucked this week, you owe me $100.
00;00;12;09 – 00;00;37;27
Unknown
Welcome to Wager Danger, a podcast about gambling, addiction and recovery. I’m your host, Shane Cook. Gambling Disorder Program director at Gateway Foundation. It’s a pleasure to have Dan Trolaro join us today. Dan Story is one of struggle, redemption and transformation from its early exposure to gambling on horse racing to a successful career on Wall Street that spiraled into addiction and crime.
00;00;38;00 – 00;01;11;04
Unknown
Dan’s Journey is a powerful testament to the grip gambling can have on a person. But Dan’s story doesn’t end there. Now, as a leader in gambling, addiction, education and prevention, Dan is at the forefront of addressing the evolving landscape of sports betting and its impact on at risk populations. Join us as we explore Dan’s incredible journey. Discuss the challenges of problem gambling in the digital age, and uncover valuable insights that can help countless individuals struggling with gambling addiction.
00;01;11;07 – 00;01;28;24
Unknown
Welcome to the show, Dan. Thanks, Shane. It’s good to see you again to be here with you. It’s been a little while, a couple of years since we last worked together, so it’s great to be here. Yeah, for sure. I think it would be really interesting to kind of go back through the history of how we first connected and how we got here today.
00;01;28;26 – 00;01;55;05
Unknown
And I know you’ve had an interesting journey over the past several years working in this problem gambling space, So I do want to focus on that. But I got to tell you is as far from my perspective, having the opportunity to meet with you and work with you has been fantastic. So I really appreciate you taking the time out to join the show here because I think it adds a lot to what our listeners can take away.
00;01;55;08 – 00;02;23;17
Unknown
So your journey has been an interesting one. It comes from a personal experience that you had with problem gambling. And then and then it really transitioned into some really interesting areas. And what you’re doing today to me sounds entirely fascinating because we both have a love of sports. You’re in the thick of it and I’m anxious to get to that.
00;02;23;17 – 00;02;46;24
Unknown
But let’s start back at the beginning, if you wouldn’t mind to just kind of give us a quick overview of how you got started working in the problem gambling space. Sure. Yeah. Thanks, Shane. A great lead in and just great to be here. You know, I didn’t go to school to do the work that I do today. If I did go to school is called School of Life and had not collegiate education.
00;02;46;26 – 00;03;08;22
Unknown
You know, this this space is it’s not just a career that I’m fortunate enough. And but it is a master’s level education. That’s a master’s level education. This is true. It is master’s level. You know, I I’m blessed to be in this field. I’m blessed to do the work that I do to try to help people because it helps myself as well, you know, going going backwards.
00;03;08;24 – 00;03;28;07
Unknown
You know, I, I grew up around gambling and alcohol my entire life. You know, I was I was an athlete. I was young. I love to play sports, but also was very impressionable by my father. My father worked hard. You know, I worked hard. My father we played chess together. I wanted to learn everything he was doing. I wanted to learn.
00;03;28;10 – 00;03;47;03
Unknown
But it also meant that whenever he would go to the racetrack because horse racing was my first love, right? I wanted to go to you know, I wanted to see, you know, what is my dad doing? And my dad did drank as well. But, you know, alcohol never really messed with my life too much as an athlete. But there was something about going on the racetrack.
00;03;47;03 – 00;04;03;21
Unknown
There was something about gambling, there was something about sports, you know, playing cards, because it was a way for me to bond with my father. And, you know, I’m 12 years old and I remember my big win was not money. It was going to the, you know, born and raised in New Jersey my whole life, Golden the Meadowlands racetrack.
00;04;03;24 – 00;04;30;12
Unknown
And yeah, spending time with my dad was a big win. And I loved that. And I thought from an early age that gambling was the thing that brought us together. It’s not what’s the harm? You know, I’m. I’m just having fun, right? So it can’t be harmful at all. It brings me closer to my dad. But then as I was going through like 12 to 17 years old and the brain still developing and I’m taking it all in and I’m I’m asking my dad, you know, teach me how to play poker.
00;04;30;15 – 00;04;50;08
Unknown
How does blackjack work? Yeah, What’s a sports betting line? What’s it over under? What’s a teaser? What’s a parlay like? I want to know it all, you know? Yeah. And I was hungry for it. And then I associated a school with my friends who also gambled. And one of my best friend’s father actually ran a bookmaking operation in the county in which I lived in New Jersey.
00;04;50;10 – 00;05;12;06
Unknown
And so I was helping him collect tickets, parlay tickets, you know, for the weekend games. And he would say thank you by bringing me down to Atlantic City, to the casino area for bowling or games and buffet. So early on I only saw the positives, so I was amazed. Well, yeah, yeah. It sounds like you were you were right in the thick of it, too.
00;05;12;08 – 00;05;34;00
Unknown
I mean, going back to your comments about horse racing too, to me and I had early experience with horse races too, just because my parents were enjoyed going to the horse races, they’d go down to Hot Springs, Arkansas, and go down there at least once every year. But going to the horse races, it’s it’s pageant tree as well.
00;05;34;01 – 00;05;53;28
Unknown
Yeah. So you get a full visual around everything that you’re doing. It creates a just a whole experience. I remember just even being at the racetrack for the big races or even was a Friday night car just to this day at the age of 48, when I smell a cigar or a pipe, my brain goes back to the Meadowlands racetrack.
00;05;54;01 – 00;06;12;21
Unknown
No kidding. It’s that connection. And think about holding that program in the hand and holding it and half smacking it against my hand. As the horses are coming down the stretch, rooting for that three horse. So that five horse, you know, and and being right by the finish line, it was just amongst the crowd, everyone yelling and cheering and sighing at times.
00;06;12;21 – 00;06;29;05
Unknown
You know, it was just a great experience. Sure. So that was my early exposure. And then I just kind of had gambling always like in my eye, tucked it in my pocket, right in my pocket of life. And then whenever life would get hard, I would just kill some time playing poker with friends or cards or whatever, go to the racetrack.
00;06;29;07 – 00;06;49;13
Unknown
So it was the thing that I used to kind of escape life. But I was also an athlete at the time too. I was playing baseball at a pretty high level, getting scouted by some D1 schools, a couple of pro teams, junior year of high school as a pitcher, and then I had an injury, had a rotator cuff injury, partially torn rotator cuff, ulnar nerve wrist issue, and your baseball dream died out.
00;06;49;14 – 00;07;12;29
Unknown
You know, I didn’t I didn’t I didn’t put the time in that I should have, based on the advice from the scouts. And I had to kind of recreate myself. So I graduated college college in New Jersey, formerly Trenton State College, with a major in finance minor in economics. So, you know, business always love that, love that concept come my first job working at Goldman Sachs in 1998 when I graduated school downtown New York.
00;07;13;01 – 00;07;43;26
Unknown
Great job, you know, competitive risk taking, fast moving all the things that I love, you know, And life was no pressure. High pressure. Right. And it’s that risk taking mentality, you know, that gambling mentality, too, is personality traits. Things are going well. I got married June 16th of 2001 to the girl I had met in college. And then, you know, three months later, less than three months later, everything changed because I was working downtown on September 11th and I was a block from the World Trade Center.
00;07;43;28 – 00;08;16;01
Unknown
So I saw the second plane hit the towers. I saw people jumping out of windows and bodies hitting the pavement. And it was I ended up losing 14 friends that day. And that changed my life. You know, my baseball injury changed my my goals and my life plans. But September 11th changed the trajectory of my life because I had as 25 years old, having gone through that and seeing what I saw, I didn’t talk to anybody about it.
00;08;16;01 – 00;08;39;01
Unknown
Like mental health wasn’t something we really focused on in 2001 like we do today. And I remember coming home that day. I was living in Bergen County, New Jersey, northern New Jersey at the time. And I remember just saying, I’m okay, I’m alive, I’m fine, I’m fine, I’m here. Other people aren’t. And I wasn’t fine. I was not fine.
00;08;39;01 – 00;09;01;05
Unknown
I was I felt dead inside. And when I woke up the next morning on September 12th, I needed to do something. I didn’t know what to do. I’ve always been motivated and. And I felt dead. I felt I couldn’t get started. So I opened up my laptop and I received this promotional and marketing piece from a website called Bulldog at the time was an offshore gambling company.
00;09;01;06 – 00;09;19;18
Unknown
It became a vortex kind of still around to this day. And they said, if you put 50 bucks and we’ll match you $50. And so I said, Why not? You know, why not? Yeah, that’s it. 50 bucks is nothing at the time. So I put played $100, I played blackjack for 45 minutes, you know, and I felt better, you know, it wasn’t about the money.
00;09;19;18 – 00;09;40;16
Unknown
I don’t remember how much I won or lost. I just remember feeling better for 45 minutes. And that started a slow progressive decline for eight and a half years. I would gamble on something pretty much every day. Every day. You know, I left Goldman Sachs in 2003. I joined Prudential as a financial planner. I was still starting to gamble more and more each day.
00;09;40;19 – 00;10;00;12
Unknown
And now I was a person in charge of other people’s money. I was in charge of, you know, moving things around. And it led to a bad decision in June of 2008, as my gambling was getting worse. I had kids along the way, and in June of 2008, I stole a check from a client. And I did that because she asked me a very simple question.
00;10;00;12 – 00;10;23;07
Unknown
She said, How do I make it payable to And I said, You make it payable to me. And at this point, my relationship with gambling is is is going south. You know, it’s not a positive. You know, it’s a wager danger like I was like blinking red lights wager danger. Right. Right. And I made that bad decision and I stole a $10,000 check, and I knew it was wrong, but I didn’t care at that point in time.
00;10;23;07 – 00;10;45;15
Unknown
I just knew I wanted to. You’ll stay high, in other words. Right? It’s not putting a drug in my system, but it’s. It’s feeling that that Rush and I took her 10,000, and in a couple of days I lost it. And now I owed her 10,000. And now I had a decision to make. Do I come clean and tell somebody or do I try to figure it out on my own, which is what I did?
00;10;45;17 – 00;11;09;18
Unknown
A lot of shame, a lot of stigma, right? Sure. And embarrassment. And for the next 20 months, from June of 28 until February 11th of 2010, I stole over 35 checks from 11 clients for over $2.1 million to fuel my ever growing gambling addiction, because the dollar amount kept increasing. The time I thought about it increased the number of sports I bet on increase.
00;11;09;18 – 00;11;29;28
Unknown
It just continued to grow and I was terminated from my job on that day. That’s when my journey of recovery began, and that’s when the wheels of justice started to. That’s how I first heard about Gateway Foundation, actually, because for 18 months I waited to get sentenced to go to state prison. And it was I was sentenced August 19, 2011.
00;11;30;01 – 00;11;48;17
Unknown
Prudential had reimbursed all of my victims financially, thankfully, but I ended up getting a six year prison sentence for which I’ve served four and a half years in the system for between medium security, minimum security, work form, supervised release. And then I came out of prison. While I was in prison, I knew I was not getting life right.
00;11;48;17 – 00;12;14;04
Unknown
I sucked at life and I needed to do something different. I went back on my master’s in psychology while I was on home supervised release. Okay. And that’s where things really started to change for me. Sure. That is such a powerful story and I appreciate you sharing that. And I know probably looking back on that experience, it seems like another world for you.
00;12;14;04 – 00;12;44;15
Unknown
And it is. But at the same time, I really appreciate you willing to share that because I think it’s important that people that have gone through that also have that opportunity to express what they were feeling, understand how they got to that point, because it shows the maturity that comes along with seeking the opportunity to repair your relations shifts and things like that, which you’ve had since then.
00;12;44;15 – 00;13;15;25
Unknown
Because since that time it’s been an uphill trajectory for you, right? At least at least from my what I know you can you get to kind of do the the rollercoaster thing here and there, but for the most part, it’s you from my standpoint, looking at that, you’ve been on an uphill trajectory. So but, you know, it’s funny because we know that in recovery, you know, to your point, you know, there’s ups and downs just like life, just like people who don’t struggle with any addiction.
00;13;15;25 – 00;13;46;02
Unknown
You have ups and downs every day and the struggles real you know, this life is not promised to be easy by any means. And but it’s it’s how we deal with it and how I deal with it today as opposed to just saying I’m going to go gamble or I’m going to make a destructive choice in my life, I’m able to deal with it with some tools that I’ve picked up along the way, you know, good, strong tools that from people who’ve come into my life and some people come and go, you know, I’ve always still we have friends and relationships sometimes for a reason.
00;13;46;05 – 00;14;10;18
Unknown
We have them for a season or we have them for a lifetime. And, you know, sure. And they all matter. You know, they all matter, you know, as long as we can be willing to learn from each one, you know, they play a part. And that’s how we kind of continue to move through. But but, Shane, the big thing for me, what I’ve realized is that I like who I see in the mirror, because in the worst part of the addiction, I couldn’t look it in the mirror.
00;14;10;20 – 00;14;32;00
Unknown
I didn’t I wouldn’t even want to walk past mirrors. I would have put my head down the shame and the stigma around addiction in general. But then gambling addiction is so strong, especially back when I was doing it before it was added to the DSM in 2013, recognized to be on par with substance related disorders. So before that, people didn’t understand gambling as an addiction.
00;14;32;02 – 00;14;57;18
Unknown
They thought I was greedy. Yeah, we’re still in that phase. I think with a lot of people, the majority of people that I talk to when I’m out in public and when I’m talking about our program and thing, a lot of people are still don’t make that connection. So but I think we’ve come a lot further in the last few years than where where we were, you know, back eight, ten years ago, 100%.
00;14;57;20 – 00;15;23;13
Unknown
And certainly certainly this is a great segway because a large part of that comes out of the state of New Jersey and some of the work that you eventually transition to working at the Problem Gambling Council of New Jersey. Yeah, I may not be calling it the New Jersey Council on Compulsive gambling. Yeah. And you were the you were one of the assistant executive directors there at the time.
00;15;23;18 – 00;15;42;29
Unknown
So tell us a little bit about that experience. Sure. And how that helped support you, as you know, as part of your recovery journey? Yeah, it’s funny because I was doing something for the church that I worship at recently and they were saying, you know, how do you kind of stay on a good path? You know, how do you stay clear minded?
00;15;42;29 – 00;16;11;19
Unknown
And I shared some tips, and one of it is the work that I’m privileged to do for a living kind of keeps me on a clear path as well and gives me a good chance to succeed. When I was in prison, I had mentioned I was on supervised release. I went back on my Masters in Psychology and when I was home, I think it was it was very humbling for my my first job was not working for the New Jersey Council on compulsive gambling, was actually serving pork sandwiches during the lunch shift at a little barbecue restaurant in North Jersey.
00;16;11;25 – 00;16;40;12
Unknown
And I was making maybe $5 an hour plus tips. And to go from working and some of the jobs that I had in the past to doing that type of work, I always remember my sponsor saying, you know, there’s a difference between being humbled and humiliated and it’s the size of the ego, because that would have been humiliating to put on a pig shirt and go to work and have my daughter say, Dad, you’re going to the piggy place today.
00;16;40;15 – 00;17;00;05
Unknown
That’s easy for someone to really start to feel bad about themselves. But in recovery, it was such a different mindset because it just kind of humbled me. And I said, Yep, I’m going to the big place. And I just embraced it. And that was a step along the way. And I worked there, and then I worked in another restaurant and then I woke up one morning and I looked at the classified ads in the paper.
00;17;00;05 – 00;17;25;15
Unknown
You know, we used to read the actual physical newspaper, but yeah. And so I see this advertisement for a gambling counselor position in North Jersey. I said, That’s interesting. I said, I know a lot about gambling. It impacted my life. I like to help people. So let me inquire about this. So I made a phone call and I was redirected to someone who worked for the New Jersey Council on Compulsive Gambling, and his name was Jeff Beck.
00;17;25;17 – 00;17;48;03
Unknown
Jeff Beck was the treatment coordinator and he became my mentor and he passed away way too soon. And he was a wonderful, wonderful human being. And he said, Why don’t you come on down, Let’s have lunch together and let’s hear your story and let’s see if we have something for you. So we had lunch together and and Jeff was an amazing human would listen so well, but a very messy eater.
00;17;48;03 – 00;18;04;12
Unknown
And he knew it. You know, he’d have a change of heart. See it stuff all over his shirt after lunch. But he said, you have an interesting story. He goes, We’re not really hiring now. We might have something in the near future, but would you like to join me and go to a gay meeting? I hope I host a gay meeting up in your neck of the woods.
00;18;04;18 – 00;18;23;04
Unknown
I said, Sure, why not? So then I started going regularly with him and then started speaking in different events around New Jersey. And I got a phone call one day that the New Jersey Council on Compulsive Gambling had a part time position for education. And I said, This is a 2014 2015. It was almost ten years ago. Yes.
00;18;23;08 – 00;18;43;12
Unknown
And it was great part time. And it was because monies had been granted the state because of online gambling. Online gambling was legalized in 2013 and New Jersey and some of those moneys were allocated towards education and prevention and research and treatment. So they used some of that and they brought me on originally just as an education coordinator part time.
00;18;43;15 – 00;19;07;05
Unknown
Within six months I was full time and within a year I had been promoted to then a different role within education, and then it just continued to grow from there to ultimately being the assistant executive director for a few years. Even going through COVID where we were up, I mean, we were reaching, we were going to about 140 high schools a year in 2018 and 2019 and the state of New Jersey, Carol.
00;19;07;07 – 00;19;28;09
Unknown
It was great. And it wasn’t because of gambling, Let’s be honest, like a lot of the principals and superintendents said, we don’t have a gambling problem. Your kids are too young. But I said, okay, you’re not going to let us in that way. But did your kids play video games? And they said, Yeah. I said, okay, within video games there’s these things called loot boxes and prize packs, and they can spend money to try to win something of value digital.
00;19;28;12 – 00;19;47;29
Unknown
That’s gambling mechanics. So we started going down that path and they said, Yeah, you’re right, come on in. Right. Then fantasy sports took off at the same time, daily fantasy sports. So we experience a lot of success. While I was at the New Jersey Council and Pass Bill was repealed in 2018, which allowed for states to decide how to enact sports betting if they wanted it.
00;19;47;29 – 00;20;15;04
Unknown
Legislation, all that stuff. Yeah. New Jersey was one of the first because of all the hard work and the paving the way leading up to that. And I remember tracking the helpline calls to 800 gambler because the New Jersey Council on Compulsive Gambling owns the 800 gambler helplines the national helpline right now right well it’s becoming the national hotline finally final you still see some of those ads where they have a long list of other states that have.
00;20;15;04 – 00;20;35;04
Unknown
Yes. Other phone numbers. Hardly. We’ll get them all on board. Yeah, Hard to remember them. I always think that’s the easiest one. But I also understand other states they have it for reasons. And you know, if they’re having multiple numbers, that’s. That’s good. Better than having no numbers at all. So, you know, we’ll take that. And I remember tracking the help line calls.
00;20;35;05 – 00;20;56;02
Unknown
And what I notice is when Pass Bill was repealed, I started tracking how many total help line calls do we get every month and how many of them are related to sports betting. And every month, month over month, the numbers just the uptick was unbelievable. The percentage of people calling with a problematic relationship with sports betting just continued to escalate.
00;20;56;05 – 00;21;25;19
Unknown
And then COVID happened, right? And then there was no sports and the interesting shift on that chain was the sports betting calls transitioned into day trading stock. MORGAN Cryptocurrency calls, you know, very similar in sports in back. And it continued. So I was at New Jersey Council during a really critical time that sports betting was was was legalized or passed Bill was repealed allowing it each state to legalize sports betting as they determined and it’s been I mean that was 2018.
00;21;25;19 – 00;21;56;16
Unknown
We’re six years past that now and it’s just been growing around the country right. Well, it was during the COVID period, too, that Illinois legalized sports gambling or online sports gambling as well. Right. So I think a lot of a lot of the states took advantage of that in terms of, you know, passing the legislation. Probably easier to get votes at that time because people were cooped up at home and thought, yeah, why not?
00;21;56;18 – 00;22;21;09
Unknown
Right, exactly. Exactly. Well, it was plus it’s revenue, too. I mean, yeah, it’s funny. And we’ll talk about the work I’m doing today, but working with college campuses, a lot of the college administrators and decision makers said as sports betting was legalized, let’s let’s have them advertise on our campus because we’re losing revenue from COVID. COVID cost one year, if not two years of ticket sales for a majority of colleges.
00;22;21;11 – 00;22;39;27
Unknown
And that’s a lot of money loss. So how do you make money back? We’ve got this booming sports betting growing. They want to advertise because they want the future generation to be customers. So sure, yeah, let us advertise on campus. It’ll be a good commercial deal for you and it’s an easy way to start getting money back. But that didn’t that was not well-received.
00;22;39;27 – 00;23;02;05
Unknown
That has really not taken off at all. Are you talking are you talking about stadium naming rights and things like that? I mean, there have been there have been a few that have picked up naming rights. But it like you said, it seems to have died out. Yeah. Advertising on campus. There might be a handful right. Are still doing it.
00;23;02;08 – 00;23;21;29
Unknown
Yeah. They because they have a contract maybe you you’d know more about that than I do though. Yeah they were. I mean one of the first ones was price picks. I’m not price specs. I’m sorry. It was Pointsbet went to University of Colorado Boulder and said, you know, let’s let we’ll be the preferred sportsbook for the Colorado University.
00;23;22;01 – 00;23;48;25
Unknown
And that’s tricky. If you think about the demographic of college age individuals, you know, 18 to 22, generally speaking, it’s maybe 30% of your undergraduate population is legal, right? Everybody else is not. That’s 100% right. You’re right. And maybe they’re legal for Fantasy Sports contest, which then there’s a grooming process. Yeah, you start off with the 18 plus daily fantasy sports depending on the jurisdiction and then by the time you’re 21, you can now transition into sports betting.
00;23;48;25 – 00;24;12;14
Unknown
So you you start learning about at an earlier age. But to your point, like 30% is legal. So 70% you’re marketing to underage individuals. And no, I’m not anti-gambling. I’ve never have been anti-gambling. Just because I had a problematic relationship doesn’t mean everyone does. But what I will say is I’m against I’m against illegal underage gambling, I’m against underage mark marketing towards underage individuals.
00;24;12;16 – 00;24;35;27
Unknown
Those are things I’m just not I can’t get on board with. And I won’t. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. We share that same opinion. And I have often and I’ve heard you say this before too, and it may be where I picked it up, but I tell people a lot, I’m not anti-gambling, I’m anti problem gambling. Yeah, that’s like 100% stated any more succinctly than that.
00;24;35;27 – 00;25;11;05
Unknown
Really? Well, sad day. Right? Before we get to your experience in the college space here, somewhere along the line you connected with Craig Carton and Craig Carton. I think at least some of the people that are listening to our show may have familiarity with Craig’s story. There was an HBO special that was done about it, too, you know, some pretty big fanfare that came around that he had the number one sports radio talk program in the nation back when this happened.
00;25;11;08 – 00;25;52;03
Unknown
So it’s a very public event. But now Craig’s got a podcast called Hello, My name is Craig. Yeah. And you are co-host with Craig. Yeah. Tell us how that happened. How did you two got together and, and came up with this podcast idea. Yeah, that was and that’s all credit to him. And I’m fortunate and blessed and you know, right place, right time and doing the work I was doing at the New Jersey Council, we had engaged with the local sports radio and its New York Sports radio, WFAA and Sports Radio 66 in the New York City metropolitan area, fairly large, right radio.
00;25;52;05 – 00;26;14;24
Unknown
And we said, listen, we want to start doing some advertising on your airwaves, 800 gambler. So we met some of their I guess the marketing folks who are in charge of ad space. And we have been advertising with them for a couple of years. And I was never a I was never a Craig Carton fan. I told them that, yeah, we were, because I can look backwards and see his journey just like myself.
00;26;14;27 – 00;26;37;14
Unknown
Yeah, a lot of arrogance, a lot of ego, you know. And it’s it’s also part show on, on the show that he would do. But I just wasn’t he just wasn’t the type of morning show that I would listen to. But I happened to be listening the morning that everything went south for him. When they came to his house, they arrested him and he would then start to go through his journey because of some of the stuff that he had done.
00;26;37;14 – 00;26;56;21
Unknown
And he ended up spent losing his freedom just like I had for a spell. And he went to federal prison. And when he came out, I remember writing a letter to our our contacts at WFAA and saying, I’ve never met Craig, but I just want to reach out. And I wrote a letter, You don’t know who I am.
00;26;56;24 – 00;27;13;01
Unknown
And we’ve never met, but this is where I work. I’ve been on a journey. If you ever need something, happy to talk to you. And I don’t know if he ever got that letter. I don’t think he ever did, quite honestly. But they remembered the folks at them to a friend remembered that I wrote the letter and they what they said.
00;27;13;01 – 00;27;37;08
Unknown
When Craig came back to the airwaves, he wanted to do something to heighten awareness around problematic gambling. Right. And they said that’s great. And they said, Well, we partner with the New Jersey Council on compulsive gambling. This guy, Dan, we’ve met him several times. Let’s set up a meeting between the two of you. So we did. We met virtually, I think it was November or December 2019 ish timeframe.
00;27;37;13 – 00;27;56;12
Unknown
The year is kind of a cove. It’s kind of a time where but I’m the same way, right? And that and age has kind of scared my ability. That could be itself or just full time work. So so we’ve had virtually and it was a couple of guys on the station, it was an executive producer was Craig myself.
00;27;56;15 – 00;28;14;26
Unknown
And before I got on there, they said, Listen, just be yourself if he likes you, great. He doesn’t like you is not going anywhere. You’ll find somebody else. So I said, No problem. I am who I am and that’s all I can be, you know? Right. So we get on and we just talked back and forth and the time passed like that, like 30 minutes.
00;28;14;26 – 00;28;38;15
Unknown
The meeting was done and I get a text message and they’re like, He really liked you. And he said he’d like to do the show with you. And our first guest was Governor Christie, former Governor Chris Christie, because Christie and Card were friends. And it just kind of talked about this is what our our plan is. You know, every week we’re going to have a different individual either share their journey of someone who struggle with gambling.
00;28;38;15 – 00;28;53;24
Unknown
Right. When it started, how it progressed, when it got bad and what they’re doing today. So we can give hope to people and give voice to people who maybe didn’t identify. They don’t know how to identify with gambling related harm. So every week we have a different guest and there have been weeks that we have clinical folks on.
00;28;54;01 – 00;29;15;01
Unknown
You know, Dr. Tim Fogg is a good friend from UCLA. Great guy. Right? We’ve had a Keith White from the National Council on Problem gambling, right? We have our family members in recovery, our family members of loved ones in recovery, because it’s important to have that support as well. We have affiliates from different states so that the Pennsylvania state affiliate, my good friend Joshua Cole.
00;29;15;04 – 00;29;37;03
Unknown
So we’ve had different folks come on. But for the most part it’s about having someone share their lived experience because when you’re vulnerable, it allows other people permission to say, Well, I’m not alone. You know, I’m I me, I am who I am. And we’ve been doing this now for, what, four and a half years? I think so I think it was 20 the 2020 that we started.
00;29;37;03 – 00;30;04;15
Unknown
I guess it was or 20 years. It’s around four years we’ve been doing the show and there are weeks that we have some replays, but we we because of travel schedule. Now Craig is on Fox Sports one right in the morning and you know and I’ve moved on but it was I was so on board for that because it’s about sharing stories to make people not feel alone or isolated that you know there’s other people out there who are struggling just like you.
00;30;04;15 – 00;30;37;09
Unknown
And and there’s been a growth in podcasting since, you know, all in with Brian Hatch. We’ve got some great the some female focused podcast with Chris Cook. Yeah. Christina Cook We just had her as a guest this all month. It’s fantastic. She’s she’s building just an incredible resource. Yes. Not just the podcast. She’s curated, you know, multiple sources for people to go to and and, you know, engage with others and share their experiences.
00;30;37;09 – 00;30;55;12
Unknown
It’s fantastic. Awesome. We don’t chat too much because of just time and we just don’t intersect too much. But I have a tremendous amount of respect for the work that she’s doing. really? And, you know, we have the and there’s others too, and their names probably a state me right now. But we also have gamblers in recovery dot com.
00;30;55;16 – 00;31;18;13
Unknown
I mean that’s a website that was developed during COVID because you couldn’t go to in-person meetings. So they created a website where you had a whole bunch of Zoom meetings from all around the country and you could jump on a meeting, a 12 step recovery meeting, one for family members at any you can be in one in Dublin, Ireland, you could be in one in Chicago, in California, all hours of the day has been wonderful.
00;31;18;15 – 00;31;47;00
Unknown
Yeah. So that really gave access to people where maybe they didn’t quite have the means to attend a meeting or maybe they were a little nervous. It just gives more access and availability, right? For sure. And that’s that’s one of the things to one of Christina’s latest projects is called the Pod, where she’s creating a resource for all of the year’s podcasts for the meetings, the listing for the meetings where you can go and join and find them.
00;31;47;02 – 00;32;22;02
Unknown
So just great work there. Really intense learning about everything that she’s doing. That’s awesome. So along this same timeline and while you’re on this journey, you jumped from the New Jersey Council and started working with an organization called Epic Risk Management. And as I understand it, Epic Risk Management is a worldwide organization, or at least at least UK based as well as in the U.S. or Europe and the U.S. focused.
00;32;22;04 – 00;32;50;06
Unknown
Maybe they’ve extended to Australia by now, but I would think that that might be on the radar at some point. But anyway, when you were there, you were you were doing some interesting programs, or at least from my perspective, it seemed interesting where you you were going in and working with student athletes. Yeah, across the country. And it mainly at the D1 level, maybe D2 or also De La Crosse.
00;32;50;09 – 00;33;12;03
Unknown
So did you hit in-air A as well. No, did not. Okay. No. And it was it was a great opportunity. You know I, I left the New Jersey Council and it wasn’t easy to leave Shane, because that was the number I had called so many times for myself. And it was a family. It was a small organization focused on helping to reduce incidents of problematic gambling in the state of New Jersey.
00;33;12;05 – 00;33;37;24
Unknown
I felt myself, though, being called more and more to speak at different events around the country outside of New Jersey, and he started to become a little bumping up against a bit of a wall because you can’t spend so much time outside the state that you’re supposed to be serving. And I kind of came to a point where Epic reached out to me in 2021, 2022 and 2021, I think it was.
00;33;37;27 – 00;34;05;17
Unknown
And they said, Hey, listen, you know, we’d love to talk with you more because we’re looking to grow our presence in the U.S. They had just agreed to a three year deal to provide education to NCAA, a college student. Athletes at the D1 two or three level. So they had funding from a third party and they had to execute and they needed to have a footprint in the U.S. And they had tapped myself to say, we would like you to kind of manage and run and grow the U.S. operation for us.
00;34;05;19 – 00;34;38;26
Unknown
And that was really interesting because that kind of spoke to the ability to to grow. I love sports, was astute. I was an athlete myself, you know, and now getting out more and working in front of college to now athletes education, you know, 18 to 22 year olds and it was a hard decision, but I ended up making the jump over to Epic and it was a great, great experience because I had the privilege to share my lived experience and be vulnerable in front of 18 to 22 year olds, which is like brain development doesn’t end till mid to late twenties and risk taking it decision making is there piece.
00;34;38;28 – 00;35;08;12
Unknown
So they’re getting to hear a firsthand experience from someone who played sports about what makes them vulnerable, about what it’s like to hear a real story, not just scared straight tactics, but a real story. And it was just a great opportunity. And then we start working closely with regulators legislators. To this day, I maintain strong relationships with both the Niagara organization, the Nicole Giese organization, all the state affiliates, the leagues themselves working with the NFL, Major League Baseball, having meetings with MLS.
00;35;08;14 – 00;35;33;04
Unknown
So really continue to expand the network. And even during that time, I appeared on a it wasn’t a pages, it’s not a podcast, but it was a YouTube channel called Soft White Underbelly, where gentleman from California, Mark later I guess was was I was referred to him. It’s got about 5.7 million subscribers and I shared my story a couple of years ago and it’s still up there now on YouTube.
00;35;33;04 – 00;35;57;24
Unknown
It’s got about 325,000 views. And it’s it’s just me sharing my journey and talking about gambling and and there have been other since, like Sol Malik does a great job at someone in Texas who in his early recovery he’s getting on the speaker circuit and I was blessed to work at Epic because I had a chance and privilege to meet so many great people that kind of help continue and kind of launch me into to where I am today.
00;35;58;00 – 00;36;31;15
Unknown
I think the unique ness of working there and working with that age group, when I look at it from the outside. Intercollegiate athletics and the participants and the intersection between what they’re experiencing, performing well on on behalf of their university and the fans who have access to gambling and where those two things intersect make for a just kind of an interesting bedfellow, I would think.
00;36;31;15 – 00;37;08;08
Unknown
And I don’t have this direct experience, but I would think there are athletes that are involved, you know, high level programs, really high level athletes that are taking on additional pressure as a result of gambling being accessible right there in there, not necessarily of their profession, but what they’re what they’re out there doing on a daily basis. Yeah, this is just a question I can’t call our profession yet, even though we can talk about that in an earlier path.
00;37;08;10 – 00;37;33;01
Unknown
But it it is a vocation for them at this point. Sure. Sure. Right. Yeah. It might be a profession next year, you know, we might be paying student athletes next year and Tennessee has already come out and said they’re going to be putting a surcharge on tickets to help pay for their student athletes salaries and fees. So, you know, there’s a lot of unintended consequences and unknown, unanticipated results of sports betting expansion.
00;37;33;04 – 00;37;56;18
Unknown
And and some of the concerns we see are around the student athletes or even professional athletes putting it on the field. You know, they’re performing on the field. You know, you have people that are wagering on these events that will start sending nasty messages, you know, threats through social media. You have fake deep fake images, you have high utilization, you have harassment, intimidation.
00;37;56;20 – 00;38;16;29
Unknown
There was a young man from one of the colleges a couple of weeks ago came out and said he gets Venmo requests regularly from people who bet on the game or bet on his performance and loses money and they’ll say, You suck this week, you owe me $100. Come on, here’s my Venmo, send it to me and it gets nasty.
00;38;17;02 – 00;38;35;20
Unknown
Some of the work we’re doing now, and while I was with Epic and, you know, just Paul Buck was my it was the CEO and the founder and remains a good friend. You know, he and he believes in people first. You know 40% of epic is lived experience and we always try to collect is a lot of data from the schools that we would go to because we want to get the feedback.
00;38;35;23 – 00;38;57;01
Unknown
And we started seeing this this concern over student athlete harassment and threat. Coach Jay Wright from Villanova actually expressed that when I was there three years ago. He said his men’s basketball team constantly receiving threats, That’s what would keep him up at night. So we started hearing this and then we started seeing the patterns. We started seeing your FBI gets involved in cases.
00;38;57;01 – 00;39;19;01
Unknown
You know, we start seeing these areas of opportunity to provide education. You know, how do you keep yourself safe? How do you protect your brand as a student athlete, so to speak? You know, digital safety, digital media, we’ve now started doing that at I.S. 360 where I where I presently am working. Yeah, well, I was I was hoping I was setting us up for a good segue way into that.
00;39;19;01 – 00;39;47;19
Unknown
You’re currently doing because I see 360. The whole platform is designed to help create a little more integrity in that space, right? Yeah. So I see they were formerly known as U.S. Integrity and they’ve been in the space for several years right around when sports betting would pass Passport was repealed in 2018, the founder and CEO, Matt Holt at the time said there’s going to be an issue with this, just kind of having the foresight to see ahead.
00;39;47;22 – 00;40;08;01
Unknown
And so they started creating some technology. They’re originally a technology monitoring company where they would look to monitor for prohibited bettors. People who are not allowed or shouldn’t be betting like athletes are not allowed to bet on their own sport or related sports, depending write up maybe nefarious activity, maybe people looking for inside information, maybe bets. Let’s just look for the anomalies.
00;40;08;01 – 00;40;33;25
Unknown
Let’s just look for the stuff. And with that, they started growing and they ultimately merged with Odds on Compliance, which is a compliance company. So now we have integrity compliance. 360 I see. 360 Okay. And what we do is we monitor sports wagering activity, we monitor the gamblers, we monitor the line movements. So we’ve got our eyes on the entire ecosystem of wagering, working with the operators, the leagues, the NCAA.
00;40;33;27 – 00;40;57;27
Unknown
But the education piece was always a little bit lacking. And so they would come in, they would do education, but just wouldn’t quite hit the mark like what we were doing at Epic. So I had conversations with them and again, not I had no reason to leave Epic. I love the work I do and I continue to do the work I do today just for a different company in a greater capacity to serve in a slightly different way.
00;40;57;29 – 00;41;22;28
Unknown
So I joined 360 in May of this year, May of 2024, and the goal was to take the technology, the case studies and everything that they’re seeing and weave it into education. And so now we can use real life examples, real case studies, stuff that’s going on here and see, this is why it matters, you know, Explore your relationship with gambling for life after school, life after sport.
00;41;23;00 – 00;41;51;22
Unknown
And it’s really been hitting the mark. Well, because, I mean, we’re seeing right now 5 to 6% of student athletes and coaches are getting harassment and threatening messages. You’ve got about 9.9% of student athletes know of someone who has a problematic relationship with gambling. That’s 10%, that’s higher, that’s high and then we’re measuring change in their levels of understanding and understanding rules, understanding where to go if you’re threatened.
00;41;51;24 – 00;42;27;27
Unknown
So we’re really making a difference. And we’ve reached we’ve reached in just two and a half months, we’ve reached just over 5000 coaches and student athletes, and we have data points that almost 3000. Wow. It’s been a blessing. Yeah, it’s been great. Well, that’s that’s great that you all are out there. And I think it’s so important to have the resource is in the work that you all are doing, not only at the collegiate level, but I would hope at some point, you know, there’s probably room for that in the professional leagues as well.
00;42;28;00 – 00;42;46;01
Unknown
Yeah, there there is, There is. And that’s where, you know, that’s why we work with regulators and legislators and FBI and all different stakeholders in the ecosystem. It takes everybody to kind of be a part of it because people will threaten college athletes, they threaten pro athletes, and it’s like, okay, so what do we do to stay safe?
00;42;46;01 – 00;43;09;04
Unknown
How do we find this? How do we try to reduce the incidence of this? You know, I was just in West Virginia speaking on campus last week, and I was down there with the Nicole Gee’s president, Shawn Fleury, who’s one of the delegates, and he was one of the members who said, you know, we’re going to pass legislation in West Virginia that if you threaten a student athlete, you will be punished to the full extent of the law, criminal prosecution.
00;43;09;04 – 00;43;34;01
Unknown
You also be banned from gambling for life. You’re done. So West Virginia and I believe Ohio are the only two states that have that legislation right now. But we need to start really going after people because, you know, Bradley Beal, NBA player from the Wizards last year was walking off the court and some guy as as Bradley Beal is walking off the court some guy spits on him from the stands.
00;43;34;03 – 00;43;50;09
Unknown
And as a man you know as any human being, if someone spits on you, that’s a that’s one of the biggest signs of disrespect. Yeah. So Bradley Beal, as it was reported in the newspaper, went up and swiped at him and then the guy wanted to sue and it comes out the guy was it was a gambler, had a problematic relationship with gambling.
00;43;50;12 – 00;44;08;22
Unknown
But that’s where you start to see these you know, athletes shouldn’t have to deal with that crap. No, it’s a game. At the end of the day, it’s game. That’s the thing. And and even when I’m on spending time on college campuses, Shane, you know, if I have the opportunity where someone says, hey, you know, we have Greek life, would you mind speaking to the fraternity and sorority?
00;44;08;23 – 00;44;34;05
Unknown
I’ll never say no to that. You know, the more we can talk, the better, right? It was interesting, though, from the time that I’ve spent on college campuses, between the time with Epic to the time now with with I see 360. I’ve been on over 100 college campuses in three years. I’ve addressed tens of thousands of students. And one of the phrases I started to hear quite a bit was, I don’t gamble, I just bet on sports.
00;44;34;07 – 00;44;56;28
Unknown
And that’s concerning. Shane That really is the that view of sports betting. Is it gambling that’s really concerning? Yeah, I hear that a lot too. And we’re back in football season, so I’m, I’m attending, you know, various football games throughout the state of Illinois. Here you know, have a table out so we can talk about what we do.
00;44;57;00 – 00;45;16;02
Unknown
And I hear that time and time again from the scouts on campus and a Shannon Gamble. I just bet on sports. Yeah. Tell me how that’s different, right? that’s different because it’s not pulling a slot machine and, well, not like my uncle or my grandfather. They gambled. I I’m different, I’m smarter, I handicap. I know what I’m doing.
00;45;16;09 – 00;45;33;00
Unknown
And a shout out to this deal in in the state of Illinois. She does amazing work with my cancer and just all the work she does with young adults, emerging adults youth. She is I mean her and I have done along for for for the last several years. And she just does amazing work and just a shout out to all that she’s doing in Illinois, too.
00;45;33;00 – 00;45;57;01
Unknown
Yeah, for sure. Yeah. She’s she’s been a guest on the show a few times. Yeah. She’s awesome. She is, for sure. Well, hey, so kind of wrapping up here as you as you take a moment and you kind of reflect back and there is an opportunity to do so in real time, where do you see us heading in the future?
00;45;57;03 – 00;46;20;05
Unknown
I mean, how does this continue to evolve and your perspective? Yeah, I, I what? So I see more stakeholders getting involved. I see us kind of starting to shift the lens to a public health approach for safer gambling. We know there’s a big push on that. I’m concerned about the marketing. I think the federal government will probably start to get more involved.
00;46;20;05 – 00;46;44;10
Unknown
And it’s really interesting because in 2018 we fought so hard for states rights, right? Repeal pass bar, give each state the right to do what they want with respect to sports betting. And and we what we asked for And now here we are six years later, almost seven years, six and a half years later, whatever it is. And we’re now saying, hey, federal government, we want some help, maybe can you step in here or there, you know, somewhere else?
00;46;44;12 – 00;47;04;21
Unknown
I think I could see it from a market, from an advertising perspective like Federal Trade Commission or some of that, because we have there’s certain bans and limitations on certain types of advertising around alcohol or tobacco. Right. Other countries have also done certain bands. I would like to see decrease in the amount that it’s just being thrown in the face of everybody.
00;47;04;23 – 00;47;23;00
Unknown
You know, young people all hours of the day push messages on your phone. The one analogy I used one time shade it’s almost like if if you’re if you go on a date with somebody, let’s say you meet somebody, you go on a date and, you know, I think the date went well, but maybe the girl doesn’t think the date went so well.
00;47;23;02 – 00;47;45;06
Unknown
So I texted her afterwards. I say, Hey, I would love to see you again. And I get no reply. I texted her again, no reply. How many times am I going to keep texting her before I get the message? She’s not interested. Right? And I would like the gambling operators to kind of think that as well, because if you have someone who’s gambling, maybe they just are trying to take a break.
00;47;45;06 – 00;48;12;20
Unknown
Maybe they just want to slow down a little bit. And when you keep inundating them with push, push messages and they’re not acting on they’re not clicking the link, they’re not depositing slow it down, back it off. And there needs to be something looked at there. We also have to make the connection for people. And this could be from the therapy level, clinical level, if someone develops a problematic relationship with gambling, I think it is important to know how they’re gambling.
00;48;12;23 – 00;48;35;20
Unknown
Is it on their their smartphone? Is it brick and mortar? Because if if if you’re using this thing to wager that wager danger right there, because in recovery, you have to relearn your relationship not just with gambling, but with your phone. Now, because this is a trigger. Every time you pick this damn thing up. Right. And technology, it’s it’s almost like the the online gambling is almost like the syringe.
00;48;35;20 – 00;48;53;10
Unknown
If we were to equate it in the substance use world, this is the syringe as opposed to a slower form of gambling, which would be like a pill, they can both become problematic, but this one just hits you faster, you know? So I do have some concerns. I have some concerns. I would like to see more education in the K through 12 school system.
00;48;53;12 – 00;49;12;25
Unknown
I would love to see us talking about, you know, stranger danger and substance use disorder and cannabis and put gambling in there. You know, I’m worried about financial literacy. We’re seeing some of the right now. I saw an article a couple of weeks ago and they’re noticing a decrease in the number of people investing for their future. And they’re looking at sports betting.
00;49;12;27 – 00;49;35;29
Unknown
And that’s concerning, you know, financial literacy, saving for your future. If you’re seeing sports betting, there’s there’s a misconception among college age individuals that the more the bet on sports, the higher likelihood to achieve long term gains. Right. Yeah, because they’re better at it. Yes. So and it’s just not true. Just not true. So there are a lot of concerns, all statistics, Right.
00;49;35;29 – 00;49;57;11
Unknown
I mean, it’s always going to be statistics. You can’t get better at it. I mean, it’s know not everything we practice in life, we get better. And that’s one of the things that’s what’s unique about student athletes is when we talk to student athletes, you know, they’re competitive, they’re risk takers, right? The appropriate risk for their sport, certain personality traits that lend themselves to addiction, they’re resilient.
00;49;57;13 – 00;50;21;22
Unknown
Resiliency is a great quality to have, but it can also lead you to pursue something that might create harm. And athletes are taught the more you practice, the better you’ll get. But that’s not always the case. Yeah, so it it’s really part of an ongoing conversation, not just a one and done. You know, when I was at Epic, we would come in, do the education, but then no reinforcement throughout the year with I.S. 360.
00;50;21;22 – 00;50;45;26
Unknown
Now we’re doing education and then we have booster sessions. Quick little that are in development right now to help strengthen a point or strengthen something that could be helpful for the student athlete or the coach. That’s great. Well, you just and you just opened yourself up to come back on the show, Dan, for a follow up conversation. I don’t know if it’s that or not, but I might take you up on it.
00;50;45;28 – 00;51;11;16
Unknown
Absolutely broke. What was it was great having you on the show today. Really appreciate it. Fantastic as always. It’s really great information for our listeners and keep up the great work out there. And you too, Shane. Always good. I’m so glad we’re connected and look forward to helping out anytime again. Absolutely. We love hearing from you, so please take a moment to like, share and comment on our podcast.
00;51;11;22 – 00;51;40;24
Unknown
You can reach out to us directly via email at Wager Danger at Gateway Foundation dot org. Look for us on Facebook and Twitter at Recover Gateway on LinkedIn, at Gateway Dash Foundation, or through our website at Gateway Foundation dot org. Wager Danger is supported through funding in whole or in part through a grant from the Illinois Department of Human Services and the Division of Substance to Use Prevention and recovery.
00;51;40;26 – 00;51;56;24
Unknown
And remember, recovery is a lifelong process. If you or a family member is struggling with a gambling problem, call Gateway at 8449753663 and with one of our counselors for confidential assessment.
