Awareness in Action | A Candid Conversation

Bob and Shane review content from previous shows and discuss Wager Danger’s role in creating an awareness of problem gambling for the listener.*

*the topic of suicide is discussed in this episode.  If you or a loved one is struggling or in crisis, help is available.  Call or text 988 to speak with a counselor – available 24/7.

2021 Statewide Assessment of Gambling and Problem Gambling in Illinois

Gateway Foundation Gambling Treatment

Call Gateway Foundation: 855-723-0963

Gambling Problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER

wagerdanger@gatewayfoundation.org

Transcript:

WAGER DANGER EPISODE 5: AWARENESS IN ACTION – A CANDID CONVERSATION

Host: Shane Cook

You welcome to Wager Danger, where we discuss gambling and the potential harms and dangers that can result when gambling progresses beyond recreation. I’m your host, Shane Cook, gambling disorder program director at Gateway Foundation. And we have a unique episode today. It’s a candid conversation with myself and Bob Ness, the producer of our show, about the topics we previously covered on Wager Danger. Bob and I chat about the impact our guests have had on his understanding of problem gambling since he’s become involved with our show. Enjoy the conversation. We just want to make sure we’re there, that they know that those services are available, that somebody who’s maybe confronting a gambling problem can consult with one of our counselors and explore that further. 

Guest: Bob Ness

Well, let’s start the show with that. That’s it. This is Shane Cook hosting wager danger. I’m Bob Ness, the producer of the show, and we’re just going to talk a little bit about gambling and the importance of awareness for the state of Illinois and what we can do to help spread awareness for people who don’t realize that they a have a problem, or b can get help. So why don’t you talk about wager danger, Shane? 

Host: Shane Cook

Well, Wager Danger is our effort to reach out to people on a different medium. So it’s a podcast and it’s geared towards anyone. 

Guest: Bob Ness

It’s a podcast. People are listening to it right now. 

Host: Shane Cook

That’s right. So it’s really an effort for us to reach out to people in a different place. 

Guest: Bob Ness

What you’re doing here with Gateway is just really important work just because of the proliferation of gambling apps and how easy it is for people to access gambling. I’m learning a lot just producing this show, and you are teaching me a lot, and all of your guests are teaching me a lot. And I’m finding myself sharing information with people, whether they want to hear it or not when I’m out. But I’m learning all kinds of stuff about it and it truly is illuminating. 

Host: Shane Cook

Well, and that’s fantastic. That’s exactly what we’re trying to accomplish with this. And it’s been interesting in our offline discussions that we’ve been having that I’m amazed at how much of that you’re soaking in as we’re going through and creating each episode. We’ve had some really fantastic guests in a very short period of time. They’re very knowledgeable, have been doing this for quite some time, have some brilliant stories to tell. And it’s just been fantastic for me to understand how that’s impacted you and your ability to understand this issue very quickly. 

Guest: Bob Ness

I wasn’t aware of a lot of things like self-exclusion where if you have a problem gambling, you can just walk into a casino and say, hey, don’t let me bet. And they have to honor that and they won’t let you bet all over the place, which is something I was like, wow, it’s just that easy because when I was younger, I used to go to casinos. And I used to enjoy playing blackjack. And you’d think you’d have a little bit of control and feel like if you won, hey, I’ll come back, and if I lost, I’ll go back and I’ll win the next time. But you don’t realize that obviously the casinos aren’t built on winners. Every dollar of casino revenue is a dollar of lost money from a gambler. 

So the fact that you could self-exclude and then it’s done, I think that’s fantastic. And I learned that from you and your guests who tell stories that are heartbreaking and some that are uplifting. So, yeah, it’s good stuff. 

Host: Shane Cook

Yeah, and for me too, I love this format because it helps me. I’ve been learning a lot as well. I have not been focused in problem gambling arena for very long. I’ve been with Gateway for a relatively short period of time, about a year and a half, coming up on a year and a half. So for me, it’s also been an educational opportunity to learn more and learn from people that are out there and have been out in the field and those that have helped structure and participate in advancing the problem gambling message across the state. I think like somebody like Bill Johnson with the Illinois Council on Problem Gambling, and that organization has been around for a long time, and for a long time it was self-funded through individual donations and contributions. 

And it’s grown to become a very integral part of the delivery that a lot of our practitioners and service providers rely on for guidance and education and things like that. I think it’s one of those things that the more we talk about it, the more we learn. We share stories with each other and have an impact on others. And you were telling me the other day about how you related a story that you heard as a matter of just going through and recording one of our episodes and you shared a particular story with a person that you had met with or were meeting with. 

Guest: Bob Ness

Yeah, this was just at a backyard barbecue graduation party and he was telling me about how someone in his family was gambling with an app and he’s doing well. And I kind of related the story of the gambler’s fallacy that we learned about from Elizabeth Theelins, from Nakasa, that really I was like, oh, you’re right. People do only remember the good times. They’re not going to tell you the time that they lost a lot of money. Of course you’re going to remember the good times only. So I said, chances are people are remembering the good times more than the bad. And then some other things that she brought up about, just like the variables. Whether you might think that you know more because you are a huge fan of the Red Sox or the Green Bay Packers or the Denver Broncos or whatever. 

You know the team ins and out and backwards, but you don’t know if they fell over the ottoman on the way to get into the car to go to the game. D*** van D*** style. 

Host: Shane Cook

Right. 

Guest: Bob Ness

You don’t know if they skipped breakfast or had spoiled eggs before the game. All these things. She told the story about the fighter that had food poisoning because they ate at the same restaurant the night before. 

Host: Shane Cook

Right. Heavily odds on favorite to win the match, ends up with about food poisoning the night before and goes out and probably loses the match the next day. Those are all things that unaccounted for variables. Right. And they’re present in everything. You were mentioning blackjack. There are things that you just can’t predict. 

Guest: Bob Ness

I always win when I wear my lucky hat, though. 

Host: Shane Cook

But it gets back to her overall message, and I think most people that approach this with a sense of neutrality will favor. If you’re going to gamble, utilize it as a form of entertainment and not expect that you’re always going to win, but treating it as a form of entertainment and you lose, you’re able to walk away with a particular plan in mind before you go into a casino. 

Guest: Bob Ness

That’s like setting a budget for yourself, in other words. Right. Just like saying, okay, I’ll bet $100. I’ll bet $500, whatever your budget can afford, and once it’s gone. You don’t chase it. 

Host: Shane Cook

Exactly. 

Guest: Bob Ness

I knew somebody who used to say, going into casinos, I hate losing money more than I like winning. And that always kind of like I think you probably wouldn’t sell many shirts like that at a casino, but it’s a pretty good saying. But I had a question for you regarding the apps and things of that nature that have now, when did that all it became legal this year in 2022. 

Host: Shane Cook

Correct. In the State of Illinois. Yeah. 

Guest: Bob Ness

The State of Illinois. 

Host: Shane Cook

So it became legal then, but go ahead. 

Guest: Bob Ness

No, I was wondering if that affected the age, the average age of a gambler. What is the average age of a gambler? And if they’re younger, are they more likely to have youthful exuberance and then become addicted age-wise? What are gambling demographics? 

Host: Shane Cook

Well, I think that’s a challenging question to answer in terms of ages. Now, I’m going to step back a little bit because I think it’s a complex answer. The state of Illinois has recently come out with a prevalent study, and for the first time they’ve dug into and done some heavy research on what are the demographics of gambling, what are the favorite games, what are the male versus female, I should say, what are the gender’s response to gambling, what are the ethnic populations response to gambling. Is it high, low? Was it age demographic, exactly the whole way there? 

Guest: Bob Ness

Yeah. 

Host: Shane Cook

And I’m still spending time with it, so I can’t tell you definitively. 

Guest: Bob Ness

No, I didn’t expect you to pull out a spreadsheet with a pie chart on it, but I just didn’t know. 

Host: Shane Cook

But I will tell you this in terms of and this is somewhat anecdotally, and I think people can relate to it, we have a scenario where our younger population, and I would say preteen teen adolescents, are very adept and very equipped to deal with technology, those that are involved in online gaming. And when I say online gaming, I’m talking about Xbox or PlayStation or handheld devices where you’re playing games with other people on the other end. These are traditional video games that you. 

Guest: Bob Ness

Might think of, but they don’t necessarily involve money, right? 

Host: Shane Cook

They don’t necessarily involve money, but they do involve items. You may have heard the term loot boxes. So loot boxes are and you have to think of gambling as anytime you put up anything of value with the potential to win more in return. So you can gamble. You don’t necessarily have to have money to gamble. You can gamble with items, you can gamble with loot boxes within the context of these games. So I think younger and younger children are being exposed to this because they have the ability to wager or bet against other players within a game scenario for their loot boxes that they would then if they lose a battle, for example, then their loot box or their skin goes to their opponent in return. If they win, they get their opponent. So it sets up this scenario where it mimics gambling. 

So as kids advance and they advance through adolescence and young adults really fairly adept at this. And by the way, it’s not necessarily limited to just video gaming. It could be within the family. Family night. They’re doing game night and maybe they play cards, right. My dad and I, when I was growing up, my dad and my uncle would play gin. And it’s a card game. Suits. And you try to run suits or collect four of a kind. Three or four of a kind, right, yeah. 

Guest: Bob Ness

I remember playing jazz gin rummy. I remember playing those games. I never put money on it. 

Host: Shane Cook

Well, they used to play for a penny a point, right. So I would sometimes join in their game and play with them, play with one or the other. And they taught me how to play. And we kept a running tally of a penny a point. Now, we never paid each other out. It was just for fun. We kept it on a piece of paper. So really what were playing for was bragging rights. But it was kind of the same thing. I mean, we’re setting each other up or setting them up for future betting opportunities. Right, but you understand how it works at that point. 

Guest: Bob Ness

I was young, someone’s ability to pay rent. 

Host: Shane Cook

Yeah, right, at a penny a point. Although over the years, when I started getting older, my dad and I had a pad of paper that we kept and it was quite significant, but were always pretty close in the points column. 

Guest: Bob Ness

You finally settled up after 25 years, right? 

Host: Shane Cook

Yeah. So you have that dynamic at play, and then as they get older, and especially with the advent of online gambling within the state, sports gambling, it becomes very easy to transition to that. And the way these online sportsbooks are set up, it’s almost set up to be a game within the game. So it’s very active at all times. You have in-game betting opportunities. So there’s no you’re talking about the gamification. 

Guest: Bob Ness

I think it’s a word I heard you use, a gamification. 

Host: Shane Cook

Yeah, it is, to a certain extent, a gamification of the game within the game. So, for example, if you’re watching a White Sox game, I’ll take the Cardinals as an example. So you’re watching a Cardinals game and Paul Goldschmidt comes up to hit, and all of a sudden you’re offered within whether it’s draft kings or FanDuel, you’re offered the opportunity to bet a dollar and win $5 if Goldschmidt gets a hit on the next pitch. 

Guest: Bob Ness

So they offer that to you or you make the suggestion to them it’s. 

Host: Shane Cook

Offered within the application itself. You can choose it or not. Yeah. 

Guest: Bob Ness

Okay. So you’re sitting there passively, and they will send you an offer that says, okay, five to one if he gets a hit, ten to one if he gets a home run, or something like that. 

Host: Shane Cook

Yes. 

Guest: Bob Ness

So, yeah, these are the things that I think just make this a little predatory, where you kind of go, well, once again, like were saying earlier, if you feel like you know sports better than others, you’re going to say, well, he’s over ten, he’s got to get out of the slump soon. I’ll take that. I’ll take that bet. I’ll put a buck down or $10 down and get 50 back, and then you lose the money or you win it and you get that hit of dopam, meaning you need to do it more. It’s changed the way I watch a game because I’m like Jeez, who just happened to put $50 down on this guy hitting a home run and he’s winning in high five and all of his friends, or he’s really sad because he didn’t. 

Host: Shane Cook

Right, yeah. It is a little bit different. 

Guest: Bob Ness

I had no idea they offered those bets to you. 

Host: Shane Cook

They do. 

Guest: Bob Ness

Even more insidious. 

Host: Shane Cook

In some cases. It’s pitch-by-pitch. The odds will change, it becomes different. Really? Yeah. Very interesting. I think it has the potential and we’re still fairly new in this, having only been legal in Illinois for about a year and a half now, it’s still fairly new, but I think the impact that it has on people that are really into it can be significant. 

Guest: Bob Ness

But what I didn’t realize I saw the movie Uncut Gems that came out a few years ago or whenever that came out, and I was on the edge of my seat the entire show, and I was like, I don’t ever want to feel this much angst for a character. And then I was like, oh, my God, this is just insane. That he would do this many bets on a single game. That would have to happen sequentially in order to get this big payout. And back in those days, you’d have to go see your bookie, right? Or whatever. There wasn’t really legal betting or I don’t know if you could do that kind of betting other than in Vegas, but if you did, you’d have to go see a bookie. 

It would seem a little more seedy where you have to maybe go see a guy, give him your money in OTB or something like that, the off track betting or however you do it. But it just seems like when I saw that, I was like, someone betting on this incredible sequence of events is during a basketball game that I like, I never knew you could bet like that on a ball game. I knew you could bet on three things in a horse race, the trifecta, but I had no idea you could do it in other sports. And so with an app, you’re not going to see a loan shark ticket cash to do this. Everything just right in the palm of your hand, and it’s hidden. You don’t know if someone just lost $100,000, if the Bears lost, or if they won. 

It it seems like it could really creep up on people, and I’m sure it does. I’m sure you’ve probably seen or heard stories about it where whoops the stories that I’ve heard from these shows where someone has mortgaged the house or gotten this second or third and fourth credit card and maxed those out with gambling debts. That’s just incredible. 

Host: Shane Cook

Yeah. 

Guest: Bob Ness

And then the heartbreaking story like we learned from Theresa, that suicide is you’re five times more likely to commit suicide if you have gambling than other addictions, which that was shocking to me, too. 

Host: Shane Cook

Yeah. And I think it’s shocking to a lot of people as well when you first hear that. But if you take a step back and some of the stories that you just referenced, when you think about you’ve mortgaged everything to a point where you can see no way out of it, I think people start to understand how impactful that can be in terms of moving somebody to consider suicide at that point. There’s a deep despair. There’s a sense of hopelessness that is unmatched with other addictions in terms of five times more likely to consider suicide at that point. And it’s a hidden addiction, as we’ve talked about and we’ve learned. 

It’s very hard to recognize, it’s very hard for people to understand that this might be a problem for them until sometimes it’s almost to the point where it might be for them and their perspective. It might be too late to do anything about it, but it’s never too late to reach out to somebody and have that conversation to start. 

Guest: Bob Ness

Yeah, like you said, it’s hidden with alcohol and drugs. There are smells associated with booze and drug behaviors and things like that. With gambling, it doesn’t seem like you can just hide it. So if somebody thinks they have a problem and they contact Gateway, how does it work? 

Host: Shane Cook

What’s the process in terms of seeking treatment? Where we provide treatment, we do so in a group setting where people form bonds and relationships with other people in treatment or currently undergoing treatment. In fact, I was just in the hallway here and I had a conversation with one of our counselors and she was very excited because we’ve had several people that have joined our groups recently and she was talking about how this group, they’re very connected to one another and they feel very safe and they’re sharing. And she said it’s just been a joy to watch because they’re all relying on each other. So if somebody is missing from the group that night, it shows and they’re concerned about that person. 

So there’s a growing empathy within that core group that meet once or twice a week now and they’ve really become very close with one another. 

Guest: Bob Ness

So Gateway’s approach is more just is the group and everybody kind of supporting each other and getting each other through conversations and yes, our program is. 

Host: Shane Cook

28-week program where they come together, like I said, either once or twice a week. They have the option of attending twice a week or once a week. And it’s a 28-week program. 

Guest: Bob Ness

Okay, yeah, I think that’s great. Once if you have something and you recognize your problem, if you can be around other people with similar situations, then yeah, that you’ve got common ground and you’ll hopefully find solace and some help consulting with these people. 

Host: Shane Cook

Right. Well, one of the pieces of feedback that I have heard from people who have participated in not necessarily our program, but any program, what I hear from them is I never knew that somebody else felt the same way that I did. So as somebody’s going through a disordered gambling, they’re in the middle of a disordered gambling episode or somebody recognizes that they’re a problem gambler, oftentimes they feel like they’re the only ones that everybody else is not feeling those same things. So when they get into a group setting, they have an opportunity to break down those barriers and talk to one another. It’s a little comforting to know that, hey, I’m not the only one that feels like this, there are others. 

So it’s a point of validation, I believe, for the person that, hey, you know what, this is a good group to be associated with. I believe that together we can make progress and work towards getting beyond this. So looking from the outside, that’s what I’ve taken away from it. 

Guest: Bob Ness

Okay, yeah, that’s what I’m saying. It seems like the support groups, the support you have in these groups is really important to have so that you cannot feel alone in this situation. 

Host: Shane Cook

And in that sense, it’s like other addictions, right? Your spouse, your close friend may not understand, can’t empathize fully with you, but when you’re together with other people that are battling the same addiction, it becomes easier to bond and to kind of confide in one another. 

Guest: Bob Ness

And so the gambling program is at every location in Gateway, Illinois locations. 

Host: Shane Cook

It is to a certain extent. And let me drill down on that a little bit. So everybody that comes through the door at Gateway or calls into our call center will go through three questions screening about their gambling habits, so to speak, and 1 may be, have you ever returned to gambling after a loss to make up for the loss as an example of a question? So in that respect, everybody participates in that, and all of our locations participate in that. In the other scenario, somebody may be admitted to one of our programs, whether it be drug or alcohol, and they’ll go through the same thing. They go through that screening. And then while they are seeking treatment for other addictions, whether it be drug or alcohol, everybody has a 1 hour education session on gambling. 

To explore the topic in a little bit more detail, we drive down into recognizing the signals for problem gambling and then ultimately end with a longer questionnaire that people fill out. And if it comes up positive, then we explore it a little bit further with our organization here or with our location in Downstate, Illinois, and have a direct conversation with a case management worker that we have. And if she believes that it would benefit the individual, advice them to participate in the group, and then that group is offered remotely as an outpatient program at the moment. 

Guest: Bob Ness

And then do you have people that are in the program speak or any like some of the people that you’ve had as guests that we’ve been able to have on the show on Wager Danger? Do they come and speak to these groups? Because the knowledge that some of these professionals have, I think it’s just so important. It’s affecting me. And I don’t have a gambling, I don’t like gambling, and I’m learning so much. So do they come and speak to the groups? 

Host: Shane Cook

Not typically, no. 

Guest: Bob Ness

They can listen to the podcast. 

Host: Shane Cook

They can listen to the podcast. And I highly encourage that. That would be great. Extracurricular activity or extra credit activity, if you want. But no. All of the programs are led and we have a set curriculum that we offer here, and all of those are led by Missy Coffee, who’s actually been one of our guests. 

Guest: Bob Ness

She was one of the first programs. 

Host: Shane Cook

Yeah. So she leads the group through the curriculum, right. 28 different sessions. 

Guest: Bob Ness

Okay. Yeah. It’s crazy that gambling is so easy to do now when you used to have to make a physical trip to a casino and do that sometimes. Before when the casinos were only in Vegas or Atlantic City, it used to be like kind of a rare thing to be able to gamble. Now you can gamble from anywhere, and. 

Host: Shane Cook

It just makes it we’ve talked about this a lot, the accessibility, and if you think about that and kind of take the starts in Vegas and Vegas wasn’t the only place. If you think back in the old west days, any mining town that exists, there was typically a casino there. So you had Tombstone, you had Deadwood in South Dakota and any other mining place. I’m sure there was a gambling hall or card. 

Guest: Bob Ness

The poker games. 

Host: Shane Cook

Gambling has been with us since the dawn of ages and dawn of man. There’s constantly been gambling. It’s just a matter of it wasn’t always accessible like it is today. So gambling hasn’t always been in Vegas or New Jersey. It’s been around us. And as time has gone on and states across the US. Have allowed for riverboat gambling, they’ve allowed for lotteries have come in across and a lot of people don’t think about lotteries as a form of gambling, but it kind of is. 

Guest: Bob Ness

People buy tons of tickets. 

Host: Shane Cook

Yeah, I was in line at a convenience store not too long ago, and I thought I was going to catch it at the right time because there was only one other car in the parking lot, and I was ready for a quick in and out, right, because they’re supposed to be quick stops. Well, I get in there and this guy’s cashing in a month’s worth of tickets that need to be run through the computer to see if there’s any winnings. And then once he did, then he was making his next month’s purchases for all the different lotteries. And I was standing there for 510 minutes. And then the woman behind the counter, she was only one we’re almost finished. She was trying to hold me there. 

Guest: Bob Ness

She wanted to make another sale. 

Host: Shane Cook

But, I mean, that’s another example of there being so many opportunities for people today to go out and gamble in a more formal way, if you will, as opposed to sitting around the table at home playing penny-a-point gin rummy. 

Guest: Bob Ness

And I have plenty of friends who have like, weekly or monthly poker games where they sit around with their friends. And I don’t know if it’s probably hundreds of dollars, it’s not big stakes. But from that to playing, if you’re playing $100 a week or $5 a week in the lottery, it’s still money that can be used on other things. 

Host: Shane Cook

Yeah. It all comes down to a form of recreation. Right. And you can afford it. Right. You budget for it. You approach it as a form of entertainment and you don’t stray beyond that. And that’s the key. 

Guest: Bob Ness

You don’t go to a movie thinking you’re going to leave with more money than you left. You pay for the ticket, you go into the show and you leave. 

Host: Shane Cook

Right. 

Guest: Bob Ness

Another quote from the NICASA show, but something that resonates with me. So, yeah, these are the things I keep learning and taking away from doing the show with you. So, yeah, it’s been great learning all this stuff with you and with your guests and yeah, I think this is a good service for the people of the state and not just Illinois, for those who are ever listening and are looking for some help. And articles we always post in the show, notes, articles, just it’s not anecdotal evidence. It’s empirical evidence with peer-reviewed research that is all published and it’s real data. 

Host: Shane Cook

Right. I’m glad it has had an impact on you, Bob, because that’s exactly what we’re trying to do with this show is it’s not necessarily preach to anybody. It’s more preachy. 

Guest: Bob Ness

Yeah. 

Host: Shane Cook

It’s more an opportunity to get the word out so people understand it. Maybe they’ve wrestled with this idea that they’re gambling too much in their head and they listen to some of the stories. They can relate to that. Well, if they can relate to it, give somebody a call. Whether it’s Gateway, whether it’s 1800 gambler, just give a phone call, run through a screening. That will be a good indicator whether this is something to explore further or not. And that’s really what we’re trying to do, and the state is trying to do that as well. The Illinois Department of Human Services is trying to create an environment across the state where there’s multiple providers from every area across the state of Illinois that are educated. 

They have counselors that are educated in problem gambling treatment and can give that kind of help to people that call their agency. 

Guest: Bob Ness

Yeah. And that’s good to have these resources out there. The more accessible gambling is, the more accessible gambling help is. So it’s kind of a net where it’s good to have both the resources for help. If you’ve got too easily accessed, that’s an awkward way to say that if it’s too easy to access the gambling and the games and the things that can take your money away. Right. This is great. 

Host: Shane Cook

I’m glad we had this opportunity to talk about it because I’m always curious about most of our recordings and episodes, Bob, you’re in the background and making sure we all sound great, that we’re remaining on point throughout our conversation. But it’s always interesting to hear and I’ve heard on many occasions during our side conversations and follow-up conversations how much you’ve picked up from just the few episodes that we’ve done so far. I think that’s great. If you’re picking it up, I have hope that others are picking it up as well. 

Guest: Bob Ness

Yeah, I’m. Happy to unmute my mic and chat whenever we can. But, yeah, I think what you’re doing is just good, and I will tell anybody who will listen or the things that I learned because I think it’s fascinating. And this is a good project. I’m really happy to be working on it with you. So you guys are doing a great job. 

Host: Shane Cook

Well, it’s been great getting to know you and working together as well. Consummate professional, Bob. 

Guest: Bob Ness

Feelings are mutual, my friend. All right, well, do you want to read us out? 

Host: Shane Cook

Even though you’re a huge Cubs fan and I’m a huge Cardinals fan, we can still find common ground. 

Guest: Bob Ness

They both play baseball. There you go. All right, well, thanks for the opportunity to come on and chat with you, Shane. This has been great. 

Host: Shane Cook

Thanks, Bob. We love hearing from you. So please take a moment to, like, share and comment on our podcast. You can find us on Facebook and Twitter at recovergateway on LinkedIn at gatewayfoundation or through our website@gatewayfoundation.org. Wager Danger is supported through funding whole or in part through a grant from the Illinois Department of Human Services and the Division of Substance Use Prevention and Recovery. Recovery is a lifelong process. If you or a family member is struggling with a gambling problem, call Gateway at 844-975-3663 and speak with one of our counselors for a confidential assessment.