LatinX Conference on Problem Gambling

January 31, 2023
Gambling

Another out-of-studio episode in which we gather with former guests and new friends to review the first conference in Illinois aimed at understanding the prevalence and impact of problem gambling in the LatinX community. We were joined by 7 mental health professionals throughout the show to discuss everything from:

How the similarity of OCD and gambling disorder affects the brain (03:08)

That nearly 1.1 million residents of IL are suffering from disordered gambling or are at high risk to developing a gambling disorder (10:40)

What it means to “Feed the Pig” (26:10)

Understanding that the propensity to gamble has so much power over the brain that you can literally teach a rat to gamble (28:40)

Guests joining the program (in order) include: Dr. Teresa Garate, Jim Wilkerson, Calvin Miller, Elizabeth Thielan, Dr. Celeste Napier, Dr. Mauricio Cifuentes and Bill Johnson.

Gateway Foundation Gambling Treatment

Call Gateway Foundation: 855-723-0963

Gambling Problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER

wagerdanger@gatewayfoundation.org

Transcript:

WAGER DANGER EPISODE 9: 1ST ANNUAL LATINX CONFERENCE ON PROBLEM GAMBLING – LIVE FROM MORTON COLLEGE IN CICERO

Host: Shane Cook

Welcome to Wager Danger, a podcast where we discuss gambling and the effects it has when it extends beyond recreation. I’m Shane Cook, gambling disorder program director at Gateway Foundation, and we have another out of studio episode for you to enjoy, this time from the first annual Illinois Latinx Conference on Problem Gambling in CIS Rowe, Illinois. We first learned about this conference a couple of months ago from Dr. Mauricio Sequuentes, a guest on a previous show, and helped us understand just how underserved the Latinx community is when it comes to problem gambling. It was great to get together with a large group of behavioral health professionals and talk about how gambling affects the lives of the Latinx community. You’ll hear some familiar voices from previous podcasts as well as a couple of new guests in short clips during the show.

Host: Shane Cook

In order of the show, you’ll hear from Dr. Teresa Garate, vice president of strategy and growth at Rogers Behavioral and a former Gateway Foundation professional jim Wilkerson from the Illinois Department of Human Services, calvin Miller from the Illinois Council on Problem Gambling, elizabeth Thieln from NICASA, dr. Celeste Napier, who gave the keynote here today. From Rush University, dr. Mauricio Cefuentes, who is the organizer of the event and a very enthusiastic ambassador for improved mental health in the Latinx community. And finally, Bill Johnson, the executive director for the Illinois Council on Problem Gambling. As always, we learn a lot from our guests, from how the similarity of OCD and gambling affects the brain, how nearly 11% or 1.1 million Illinois residents either have a gambling problem or are at high risk to developing one.

Host: Shane Cook

What it means to feed the pig, and learning that the propensity to gamble has so much power over the brain that you can literally teach a rat to gamble. Such a wealth and breadth of knowledge. I’m excited to share this episode with you. Now let’s head out to Morton College in Cicero, Illinois, where I sat down with seven behavioral health professionals to talk about problem gambling and how it affects the Latinx community. Theresa, welcome back. Thank you. Many of you probably remember Teresa from our very first show, so it’s good to have you back behind the mic and we’re actually face to face in the same room today.

Guest: Dr. Teresa Garate

Yeah, it’s good to be back. It’s good to be back with my Gateway friends and in good company.

Host: Shane Cook

Right? Well, I was going to say, since that first time you have left Gateway.

Guest: Dr. Teresa Garate

And you’re with yeah, I’m with Rogers Behavioral, who is actually a great partner to Gateway. We focus on children and adults. So child and adolescent adult services for eating disorder, OCD, depression, anxiety, and of course, gambling and OCD are very much in the same venue of the needs of people. So I’m still very involved in this work and being an advocate to bring attention to gambling disorders as a mental.

Host: Shane Cook

Health issue, that’s perfect. And you were here today at the first Latinx conference that Cicero Family Services and the Illinois Council on Problem Gambling put together. And we had talked about you participating in the agenda while you were still at Gateway, and were fortunate to have you join us today and be on the agenda. The topic area that you focused on was really around the importance of having the state of Illinois involved in participating in problem gambling, education, outreach, awareness. But you also talked about parity in healthcare and parity in mental health care. So can you explain what that is?

Guest: Dr. Teresa Garate

Yeah, that’s a great question. I do want to say that I’m glad that this was the First Latinx because this is an issue for every community, but especially for the Latino community. As a Latina woman, a Hispanic woman, I understand how much gambling is a part of our culture and it’s part of being social and having fun. But we also need to make sure that our community understands that when it’s not fun anymore and it’s taking over your life, that it’s a problem. So it’s great that this conference took place. I was actually very pleased with the turnout, which is great. So your question was really about parity and what I can contribute to this.

I am not a gambling disorder expert, but what I thought when I was asked to participate, when I was a gateway in wearing my Rogers behavioral hat, is really thinking about what are the external factors that either are going to create access to treatment or be a barrier to treatment. And having people understand that there are laws outside of the state in our local communities that really have set the tone for why insurance companies should be held accountable and why they should pay for treatment. That’s why I picked the topic of parity.

Host: Shane Cook

Right.

Guest: Dr. Teresa Garate

So Bill gave me a little bit of leeway and said, what do you want to talk about? And that’s what I think I could contribute from the entire day, or at least this morning’s presenters. That’s the unique information that I think providers and others who are trying to advocate for can educate themselves with. There are tools out there to understand what should be paid for and how. If an insurance company denies paying for services, whether it’s a commercial insurance plan or a medicaid plan, how people can go about to self advocate and to fight the insurance companies and say, no, this is a real disease, it’s a real need. And I need to get services to be able to live and save my life just like any other disease.

Host: Shane Cook

Yeah, okay. Really appreciated that topic because it’s the first time I’ve heard it, and it was very educational. I think everybody else took something away from that as well. What I didn’t realize was you actually were working with the state at the time that legislation was crafted.

Guest: Dr. Teresa Garate

Yes.

Host: Shane Cook

And you had a hand in developing it?

Guest: Dr. Teresa Garate

Yes, absolutely. That’s a good point.

Guest: Dr. Teresa Garate

Yes.

Guest: Dr. Teresa Garate

So I have a very interesting background. I was at the Department of Public Health from 2009 to 2012 as the Assistant Director for that state agency when the State of Illinois decided to roll out managed care and do care coordination. I’ve also been involved from the beginning, both with the National Kennedy Forum and the state efforts to develop the legislation. That really is our local parity law, which is a model for other states. So that is something Illinois should be proud of. But the law is only good if people know about it.

Host: Shane Cook

Right.

Guest: Dr. Teresa Garate

And that’s the point of this communication. These podcasts are to educate people and let them know that there are laws out there and they’re not always easy to understand, but at least they’re there. And so if you have some resources to try to interpret and understand, then you can help yourself.

Host: Shane Cook

All right, well, I appreciate it, Teresa, you’ve been a great advocate, not only within the mental health care profession, but for me as well, and I appreciate that.

Guest: Dr. Teresa Garate

You’re welcome. It’s been a pleasure. Thank you.

Host: Shane Cook

It was good to have you back.

Guest: Dr. Teresa Garate

Thank you.

Host: Shane Cook

All right, so we’re here with Jim Wilkerson this afternoon. Jim was on the agenda at today’s Latinx Conference. And Jim, tell the listeners a little bit about what it is you do for the State of Illinois.

Guest: Jim Wilkerson

Well, I’m the administrator for gambling services for IDHS super. And my focal point is to work with all the providers that are out there and the organizations that are providing gambling disorder services to not only help fund them, but help them get the education that they need in terms of training and to oversee the public awareness campaign, which can help get people to their door and then also provide the 1800 gambler and the website. Are you reallywinning.com so that individuals and organizations will have a place to go to find the resources that they need to get the services that they need?

Host: Shane Cook

Sure. And you’ve been extremely busy this year. I know that firsthand from discussions we’ve had, a lot has happened over this year. The first release of a prevalent study on gambling in the State of Illinois. Tell us a little bit about that, the process, how you got the methodology that was used to capture that information, not in detail, very high level, but then more importantly, what did we learn from it and what was the most surprising thing that came out of that study?

Guest: Jim Wilkerson

Well, Health Resources in Action is an organization that we worked with to actually conduct the prevalent study. And we started this in 2020. And of course we got started, we got kicked off. And then I don’t think I need to tell you what happened. So we had to revamp based upon COVID and the pandemic and redo some approaches, but were still able to complete the study and get together with individuals. The first piece being surveying everybody across the state to kind of get an idea and understanding of what people’s thoughts were in their considerations of gambling, what do they think gambling is and what do they think that gambling looks like and what is their thought process around gambling and how does that potentially impact communities, et cetera? So just getting an understanding of what people’s thoughts were.

And then from there, we also surveyed individuals that screened out as potentially having problem gambling from the initial survey and had some discussions with them to say, okay, what does your life look like? What are some of the symptoms that you’ve had and what are some of the other things around your life? So we could take all that information together and really kind of create that prevalence or that understanding of what problem gambling looks like in the state of Illinois. And then, of course, that will help guide us in the future in terms of providing services. Okay, so we’re very excited about that piece. Probably the biggest piece that I usually get asked around this is what does the prevalence look like in the state of Illinois?

And 3.8% of the state has either a problem gambling disorder or is at risk of having a problem gambling disorder. And so when I say percentages, a lot of times people will look at that and think, well, that’s not a huge percentage. Well, what does that really mean and what does that look like? Ultimately, that means about 1.1 million individuals across the state either have or are at risk of having problem gambling.

Host: Shane Cook

Right.

Guest: Jim Wilkerson

And obviously that’s a lot of individuals that are in need of our services and in need of the resources that we’re providing.

Host: Shane Cook

Yeah, it’s shocking really, that it was as high, it came back as high as it is. And that’s 3.8% that have a problem gambling or a gambling disorder.

Guest: Jim Wilkerson

Yes, sir.

Host: Shane Cook

And then another 7.17.2% that are at high risk of developing a gambling disorder.

Guest: Jim Wilkerson

Right.

Host: Shane Cook

And that’s when I tell people that, and I tell people that works out to about 1.1 million people, they’re shocked.

Guest: Jim Wilkerson

Yeah, it’s shocking to kind of get that number and see that number and really understand what the potential impact is. But that is, of course, why we’re here. And that’s what we’re trying to do is help those individuals. And really, when you look at the services that are provided by organizations such as Gateway across the state, those types of services are really engaging these individuals that have or at risk of developing this disorder, engaging their family members, and engaging their community at the same time to really address this from that holistic point of view. And that’s what we’re really excited about, is to be able to take that information that came out of the needs assessment and take that and turn that into actual services and activities that can really help this disorder and the individuals across the state, right?

Host: Shane Cook

Yeah, it’s fantastic. It’s great to have that study plan to do the next one.

Guest: Jim Wilkerson

Yeah, we do have plans. Do another one. As I said, we do recognize that the first one was done in the middle of the pandemic and so we want to do another one to take a look at that in the future. I can’t tell you exactly when that will be, but I can say it is on our radar to say that we’re going to come back and relook at this and also potentially dive into some specifics, some information that we found out through this one to say, are there potentially increased problem gambling percentages within certain populations across the state? And so we want to dive into some of that in additional surveys and additional discussions to find out more information about that and see what other ways that we can help individuals across the state.

Host: Shane Cook

And if people wanted to get a copy of that prevalence study, where would they find that?

Guest: Jim Wilkerson

It is on are you really winning.com? Website. So head to the website, you can download it there along with other resources. And also if you have an individual that either yourself or someone you know, you’re concerned about their gambling, then you can go onto that website and also find organizations across the state that are funded and trained in providing services to you or to your friend.

Host: Shane Cook

Okay, great. And that was a great segue because the other thing I wanted to ask you about was the Are You Really Winning? Campaign. That’s a new campaign that was just launched and I know it’s getting a lot of excitement, a lot of coverage in the media with this new campaign. So tell us a little bit about are you really winning?

Guest: Jim Wilkerson

It’s very exciting. That’s a piece that came out of course, our Needs assessment. It kind of gave us some ideas and directions that we needed to go. And so we are launching in this campaign and really diving in headfirst to get the word out across the state from that public awareness point of view that here’s some of the symptoms, here’s some of the signs to be on the lookout for. Here’s where you can get the resources. And here’s what gambling really looks like when it comes to problem gambling in communities. This is what it really looks like and this is how we can help you and organizations across the state can really help you and help you dive in and get the support that you need. So we’re very excited about this concept.

You’ll see a lot of radio ads, TV ads, you’ll see the website itself. You’ll also have the capability of downloading information from the website that can be very beneficial either to yourself or to your family member or your friend. So those pieces are all going to kind of go hand in terms of really getting the word out across the state and to the people that need the services and the information.

Host: Shane Cook

Okay. And if I’m not mistaken, also some community events that this will be featured at.

Guest: Jim Wilkerson

Absolutely. We’ll have community events, health fairs, but then also when we’re looking at engaging with sporting organizations, there are several universities across the state that we’re engaging with, and we’ll be on site. So not only will you see us in terms of ads and campaigns and social media, but also at the basketball games, at the football games, and being there to not only provide information, but help individuals, screen individuals and see if this is something that might be an issue for them.

Host: Shane Cook

Sure.

Guest: Jim Wilkerson

So that way we can help and really get them connected to the services that they may need.

Host: Shane Cook

Yeah. All right, that’s great. And there’s an 800 number I believe that people can call as well if they’re experiencing problem gambling symptoms, if they’re concerned about their own behavior, concerned about a family member, concerned about a loved one, what number should they dial?

Guest: Jim Wilkerson

That is 1800 gambler. And if you dial 1800 Gambler, then they can get you connected to those resources or give you some information or even just have a discussion. If you’re an individual and you’re concerned about your gambling habits and maybe in crisis in the moment, those folks can really help you out. So 1800 Gambler is the place to go.

Host: Shane Cook

All right, Jim, it’s great having you this afternoon. It’s good seeing you at the conference and I hope that I can get you back on the show and we can do a longer form discussion.

Guest: Jim Wilkerson

Sounds good.

Guest: Jim Wilkerson

Thank you so much.

Host: Shane Cook

All right, talking with Calvin Miller here today. He is with the Illinois Council on Problem Gambling. Calvin, tell us a little bit about your role.

Guest: Calvin Miller

It’s a brand new role for me. Took on in July and as the Illinois Council had some expanding going on. And I’ve had the pleasure to work with Bill Johnson, who is the current executive director and had worked with him in the past. And he reached out to me and he said, this might be something you’re interested in. And it has been a rocket ship ride since then. For sure.

Host: Shane Cook

Yeah, for sure. I was speaking with Jim Wilkerson just a bit ago, and one of the things were talking about was how much the state has paved the way and provided for a lot of agencies to really embrace problem gambling as a service, to go out in the community and talk about it, engage with others. I think we do a really good job in Illinois. Really engaging with each other across interagency communication seems to be very effortless. And I think a lot of that can be attributed to the Illinois Council on Problem Gambling. Yes.

Guest: Calvin Miller

And looking, I mean, just looking back at what has been accomplished and then what we’re looking at now, and I mean, literally three times the amount of what we’re doing, at least what were doing just a few years ago. And as you said, the Illinois Department of Human Services is a big part of that pavement. And us being able to move out and really kind of stay at the forefront of what is now being recognized as a problem, I understand it because I’ve been in long term recovery myself for 23 years. And one of the things that I found after getting things straightened out in my life and went into treatment and came out of treatment, one of the things that lingered was the gambling issue.

And I found myself a little I think I had six months or eight months, and I thought, I’m going to run down. I was still selling cars, actually, at the time, and I’m going to run down in the car to the boat, and I’ve got $100, and I’m just going to go down and have a good time. That was at 10:00 in the morning, at five till noon. I looked up and I said, hey, about 1230, I’m going to go get me some lunch. I was up about $400 playing cards, and I thought, yeah, I’ll just stop and go get me some lunch. And at 05:00 that night, I walked out with no money in my pocket, and I realized that was a big part. It was part of what’s going on. And then today, Dr. Napier, I mean, really hits it out of the park with a presentation and lets us know that this is an issue to deal with the brain. This is something going on inside the brain. It’s not a moral issue. It’s not a moral dilemma, and this is a disease. I’m so glad that it’s recognized. And the biggest thing that hit me, because there is a lot of history in my family with suicide, and the suicide rate is through the roof compared to other things.

Host: Shane Cook

Right.

Guest: Calvin Miller

So it hits home for me. Very compassionate about it, very passionate about it. So I feel like I’m a good fit. I’m excited about the future.

Host: Shane Cook

No doubt. For sure. Yeah. Well, I’ve certainly appreciated getting to know you here since you’ve joined the council. I look forward to a bright future many more times that we’re able to engage with each other and share an afternoon together at a conference.

Guest: Calvin Miller

Absolutely. What a blessing this conference has been. For sure.

Host: Shane Cook

Yeah. Certainly has been. And I know you guys put a lot of work into it. Appreciate it.

Guest: Calvin Miller

Honored and privileged to do so.

Host: Shane Cook

For sure. All right, Calvin, thanks again for joining us. You bet. All right, let’s do it.

Guest: Elizabeth Thielan

Okay.

Host: Shane Cook

All right. Elizabeth, it’s good seeing you. First Latinx conference. You were on the agenda today. What was the message you were sharing?

Guest: Elizabeth Thielan

The message is that the landscape of gambling has changed so much in recent years, and a lot of people are coming into the gambling market, some coming in unaware, not of really being aware of the risk that can be involved. And some people are getting caught off guard and experiencing some consequences they didn’t anticipate. And so just really normalizing that gambling can go arrive for some people. And it makes complete sense to check in and see how it’s going and adjust course if it’s not really working out as planned.

Host: Shane Cook

Right. One of the main points that I took away from your comments today and your presentation is just the normalization itself of gambling. And actually I’ve had a couple of side conversations with people about that because we don’t realize it’s happening without us really understanding what’s happening. So some of the examples you shared today, would you mind?

Guest: Elizabeth Thielan

Sure. Talking about those, you can go on Pinterest and see little cute little tips for using scratch lottery tickets as party favors and that sort of thing and valentine’s. And there isn’t really an understanding that gambling isn’t for everyone, especially for minors. And so I think there’s such a normalization that we’re not being cautious to think about how young people are impacted just by one observation, but also being introduced to gambling at a young age, which research shows does predispose young people to developing a gambling problem later on. So it becomes so normalized that we don’t think to challenge it. And we do need to challenge it when we see it in certain settings, like even in the workplace. So that was another example.

I shared a text that a friend of mine had gotten just this weekend, inviting all of the entire office, hey, let’s go all in on the lottery jackpot that’s coming around the corner and just venmo me. This is a workplace and we don’t know who in the workplace may be recovering, maybe seeking recovery, who may be at risk for gambling problems. Because gambling can be safe, recreational, fun for many adults, but it’s not for everybody. So shouldn’t people in the workplace be able to go to work and not be faced with invitations to Campbell at work?

Host: Shane Cook

Well, you bring up a really great point. The normalization of it. People just don’t think I mean, it’s like, oh yeah, this is harmless. Right. But now we know that a little over 10% of the people that live in Illinois can be adversely affected by a group message that goes out in an office in a workplace, you’re hitting 10% there that may be dealing with something that you’re only contributing to.

Guest: Elizabeth Thielan

Right? Yeah. So the point is not to shame people. It’s really to challenge people to say, hey, we didn’t know this. Now that we know, let’s start being a little bit more aware and a little bit more sensitive to how challenging it is to get about your day now without some sort of advertisement or enticement to gamble. I mean, going to the pump, you get the invitation, come on, in play slots, and it’s really difficult just to watch a sporting event without being enticed, to place a wager on the event.

Host: Shane Cook

Look up a box score relentless. Yeah. And everybody feels it. Everybody that I talk to. That’s one thing that I’m tired of seeing in commercials.

Guest: Elizabeth Thielan

Right.

Guest: Elizabeth Thielan

Yeah.

Guest: Elizabeth Thielan

And even just coming to this conference, I get to hear from other people and hear their perspectives. And I don’t know if you’ve talked to Celeste Napier, but she talked about all the neuroscience behind this and really just showing how different parts of the brain are activated when gambling is problematic for somebody and really just kind of helping to destigmatize that this isn’t a moral issue. This is not some sort of intellectual shortcoming that somebody might find themselves gambling in a way that is hurting them. There’s just things going on in the brain that might make some of us more likely to do it in a way that doesn’t help us. So just being able to go, oh, okay. Well, that’s not what I expected. That’s not what I wanted.

And to be able to say, what do I want to do about it? Do I want to quit? Do I want to take a break? And somebody brought up dry January. That’s a concept that a lot of people do. They take a break from alcohol, very good practice. And there is something like that with gambling a lot of people don’t know about. And I don’t remember what it’s called. Something like feed the pig, and I don’t remember if it’s a day or a week.

Host: Shane Cook

Feed the pig.

Guest: Elizabeth Thielan

Feed the pig.

Guest: Elizabeth Thielan

Yeah. And I’m going to go find the information about that because it’s once a year, and it is promoted by I want to say stop predatory gambling out of DC. And it’s just suggesting, like, hey, during this period, don’t gamble. Put that money in the piggy bank.

Host: Shane Cook

And that’s where it’s okay.

Guest: Elizabeth Thielan

And so there is something that we can borrow from that dry January concept, and maybe we can all get the word out about something like that. And really, again, normalization. That’s, for me, the word of the day, like, normalizing talking about gambling and how it can not be for everybody. Normalize help seeking, normalize, self assessing on how something is working out for you or not working out, and normalize, making changes if things aren’t going as planned.

Host: Shane Cook

All right. Always a pleasure to have you, Elizabeth.

Host: Shane Cook

Yes.

It was good seeing you.

Guest: Elizabeth Thielan

You too.

Host: Shane Cook

All right. Joining us now on Wager Danger is Dr. Celeste Napier. Dr. Napier, welcome to the show.

Guest: Elizabeth Thielan

Thank you. My honor.

Host: Shane Cook

All right, Dr. Napier, you are a.

Guest: Dr. Celeste Napier

Professor at Rush University Medical Center here in Chicago.

Host: Shane Cook

Okay. And very fortunate to have you join us. We are at the Latinx first Latinx conference on problem gambling here in Cicero today, and you were number one on the agenda, first one out of the gate, and you were talking about the neuroscience of gambling. Right. Tell me what and tell our listeners what you mean by that.

Guest: Dr. Celeste Napier

Well, the focus of this talk when I speak about the neuroscience of gambling, it really has to do with talking about how the brain regulates, for example, decision making and including decision, those choices that one makes when they choose to gamble. And so there’s a neurobiology that sort of directs these decision making processes. And I think it’s very useful to understand that the brain is involved in making choices. And that’s what I like to speak to when we talk about the neuroscience of gambling.

Host: Shane Cook

All right. And it’s interesting you shared a study that was done by one of your students. Do you care to share that as well?

Guest: Dr. Celeste Napier

Yes, it’s a very fascinating series of studies actually done by a PhD student of mine, and it had to do with trying to see if we could get rats to basically gamble.

Host: Shane Cook

Okay.

Guest: Dr. Celeste Napier

And so the question was, if this gambling phenomenon really reflects changes that are occurring in the brain, then it should not be uniquely human, and we should be able to replicate this kind of behavior in a rodent model of human gambling behavior. And that’s what we did in the lab.

Host: Shane Cook

Okay. And what was proven out through the experiments with the rat? What were you able to compare to human behavior? And the rat was actually emulating the same thing. So essentially, that proved the theory that you established upfront or the student established up front that it was brain related behavior, not related to humans only? Or am I paraphrasing that?

Guest: Dr. Celeste Napier

No, this is very good. And the student’s name was Sandy Rakasik.

Host: Shane Cook

Okay.

Guest: Dr. Celeste Napier

And she’s now an assistant professor working in the VA system at the Heinz VA in Maywood, Illinois. So she’s a fantastic researcher, and this was her dissertation project. And the question was, could we show in a rodent model of a gambling like task that as the animal continued to progress in these gambling behaviors, could we show that they perform these tasks in a manner that was very similar to the profile that’s seen in human gambling behaviors, especially when those who suffer from gambling disorders actually take the same kind of a task. And what we were able to show was that the profile was very similar.

Host: Shane Cook

Okay.

Guest: Dr. Celeste Napier

And that was very useful to us because one of the questions that Sandy asked was if we treated the animals with a drug, the generic name of the drug is pramipexole that we know in human studies actually can promote risk taking behaviors, including promoting gambling. If this is an organic, brain derived phenomenon, if you will, then our rats should show that too.

Host: Shane Cook

Okay.

Guest: Dr. Celeste Napier

And indeed, Sandy showed that they did. When we treated the rats chronically like, it occurs in humans that these rats started to increase their gambling like behaviors until it became very obvious that they were now making very. Unhealthy choices, and the profile was mirroring those that you see in the human that has disordered gambling as well. Okay, so then the conclusion is, of course, that it’s biology, right, that these gambling like behaviors and the propensity just to continue to gamble resides in very specific parts of the brain.

Host: Shane Cook

Wow. It’s fascinating the way you went through the presentation today. I really appreciated that. What’s next on your agenda?

Guest: Dr. Celeste Napier

Well, Sandy’s graduated. This was several years ago.

Host: Shane Cook

Okay.

Guest: Dr. Celeste Napier

And our lab does a lot of work more focused on substance use disorders, and so the current research is more focusing on drugs that are being abused by humans. And the other thing that I’m doing personally is doing what you saw today, which is to sort of take these very complicated neuroscience experiments and translate them into a way that is meaningful for the non scientist.

Because I think it’s very important for us as scientists to sort of explain our outcomes in a way that can be incorporated into society and even into those who are suffering from gambling disorders with the whole idea that if one could understand and appreciate that gambling is an addiction and it is related to a disordered or diseased brain, then that allows one to sort of be relieved from this self stigmatization of self loathing or feeling that they had a lack of willpower. And all those judgmental overtones that are often associated with gambling then can be removed, and one can face this disease as one would face any other chronic disease, like chronic heart disease or diabetes. And I think we’ll have a better chance of having a good treatment outcome.

Host: Shane Cook

Yeah. And I get the sense that we’re getting better and better over time at destigmatization of gambling, much in the same way that substance abuse, whether it be drugs, alcohol, there’s been at least some destigmatization in those areas, and it only makes sense that we would start seeing some progress in disordered gambling.

Guest: Dr. Celeste Napier

Yes, I think that’s really important. And these also translate into other behavioral addictions. For example, compulsive shopping, maybe binge eating, hypersexuality. There are a lot of behavioral like addictions that we need to understand better as well. And I think once we sort of come to terms with them being under the umbrella of a brain disease, that we’ll do a much better job of treating those disorders as well.

Host: Shane Cook

Okay, great. Well, I certainly enjoyed having you on the show and look forward to seeing you at the next conference.

Guest: Dr. Celeste Napier

Thank you. My pleasure again.

Host: Shane Cook

All right, Maurice, welcome back to the show. Thank you so much.